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Hi guys,

As some of you know, during my recent trip to Asia I managed to get my hands on a few cheap CO2 equipments. At some point in the future I will go the pressurized CO2 route (since I already have the solenoid & even pH controller), but the amount of time and money it will take to rent a CO2 bottle here in Australia is more than what I can spare right now.

So 2 weekends ago I decided to try the Red Sea Bio CO2 system that I got in Hong Kong (for less than half what it costs here) on my 23g tank. It's a glorified DIY CO2 system like the Hagen ladder, but uses a small powered pump as diffuser instead of the ladder. It comes with a sturdy 1L plastic bottle to hold the sugar/yeast/H2O mix that can be conveniently hung on the back of the tank. I'm using a bubble counter between the bottle & the pump so I can monitor the bps rate (so I can see when I have to make a new batch) and also as a safety net in case the mixture decides to escape the bottle.

Before the CO2 addition, the tank had been getting a daily dose of Flourish Excel, 2x/week dose of Flourish (micros), 2-3x/week dose of KNO3 & KH2PO4, and 1x/week dose of KH2SO4 and Equilibrium. I get good growth on all plants and the only visible algae is green spot on some leaves and glass (which was under control as long as I was consistent with PO4 dosing). It's gone through some changes plant-wise, so if you don't mind I'll take you through the progression.

Here's the tank when it was first set up (~7 months ago):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_wk1.jpg

After 2 months (1.7 wpg, no Excel):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_wk7_2.jpg

After 4 months (1.7 wpg, regular Excel addition, modified EI fert dosage):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_month4_full.jpg

After 5 months (same as above, taken out big bogwood on left as it was shadowing a lot of plants)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_month4wk4.jpg

After 7 months (yesterday) and 1.5 weeks of DIY CO2 addition (also increase lighting to 2.6wpg & took out the chain swords as they were shaded by the big swords):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/23g_20060215.jpg

Observations since CO2 addition:
- I've been getting around a pretty consistent CO2 level of ~15ppm using the included mixture. Lower than ideal, but probably to be expected from a bottle of DIY mix.
- Pearling, and lots of it! I've never seen any pearling when I used Excel but now every plant is pearling like crazy, especially in the afternoon/evening. Kinda cool. Looks like the diffuser pump (the black thing on the front right corner) is doing a good job at dispersing the CO2 throughout the tank.
- Huge new leaves - I mean abnormally humungous leaves compared to what I'm used to seeing! It took about 3 days before the plants really responded to the CO2 in a big (pun intended) way. Stem plants now have huge upper leaves compared to the bottom (old) leaves, which make them look a bit weird. It's also evident that at this rate the 2 sword plants in the middle (and probably the aponogeton on the back) will soon be too big for the tank. I can already forsee the mess I'm going make when I uproot those suckers.
- I was getting quite a bit of algae (brown & green powder) on the glass in the first week, but ever since the 50% water change last Sunday, I haven't seen any more algae on the glass or leaves. BTW, I've also stepped up the EI regime to correspond with the increased CO2 (N,P,K 3x/week, Flourish & Flourish iron 3x/week on alternate days, 1 day of rest).

Questions (BTW the tank dimensions are 30"x12"x15":
- Any suggestions on what to replace the swords in the middle with? I might move the flame sword to the right (just because I like the color of this plant) & take out the driftwood/anubias combo.
- Any suggestions on what to put on the middle back instead of the aponogeton? I'm thinking something more bushy like Mayaca, but I haven't been able to find that plant here (our plant selection sux!).
- I know the tank sorely needs a good hardscape. I've been looking for a good, branchy driftwood for ages (our driftwood selection sux too!). Any suggestions on placement of hardscape - maybe middle/right where the flame sword currently is?
- Any comments & suggestions (plants/aquascape/etc) would be greatly appreciated!

Lastly, just want to share a couple of plant pics:
Pearling ludwigia repens
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/repens_pearling.jpg

(green) flame sword
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/green_flame_sword.jpg

Cheers guys!

-P

Paulus,

It seems like your CO2 experiment has worked even better than you anticipated. Yup, your big plants sure show now that they are "BIG" . One question: did you add the new light at the same time you added CO2? If so then you cannot attribute the additional growth to the CO2 alone.

Here is the problem with a tank your size and a lot of light, CO2, and ferts: It is not high enough to host most taller plants. And another issue is that all big leaved plants will look like giants, even if they don't get tall.

I would say that the biggest stem plant in there should be the Ludwigia, but you will have to trim often. Otherwise, pretty much all other tall/big leaved plants will have to go . Putting Mayaca in the back is a nice idea, but also will require lots of pruning. How about some medium height crypts as well. And yes, one or two nice pieces of driftwood will for sure create a nice hardscape. Have you every seen my 20G Long? It's dimensions are 30x12x12, but it is low tech (40W, Excel and ferts once a week). Maybe it can give you some ideas. Anyway, here is a link to it, scroll to the bottom of this page for the latest picture.

Hope this helps a little,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

One question: did you add the new light at the same time you added CO2?

Nope, I changed the lights about 2 weeks beforehand. What happened after I bumped the lights was the leaf edges of some plants (esp. anubias & h. corymbosa) started turning black, especially around the mid-to-upper region (spot algae? but it was more black than green). And there was no significant increase in growth even though I also upped the Excel dosage (to 2x recommended amount daily). Not sure what the black algae was, but it hasn't come back since CO2 was introduced. I had to remove quite a few leaves though.

I would say that the biggest stem plant in there should be the Ludwigia, but you will have to trim often.

Right now both the polysperma & repens are competing for who has the bigger leaves. I'll probably have to space them more apart than they are now. I might try bacopa caroliniana in the middle back (it didn't fare well last time in the lower light). Stargrass might work too, if I can find any here.

Yeah, I remember your 20g "quarantine" tank. Don't make me jealous with those driftwood pieces.

I'm currently at somewhat of a loss with the aquascaping on this tank. It probably needs a major overhaul in both plant stock and hardscape in the near future. Whoopteedoo...I can just imagine my wife's reaction when I tell her I have to redo the tank!

Thanks for the suggestions. Keep them coming please.
Cheers,
-Paulus

-P

Well Paulus you're discovering the joy of Co2...and the problems.

The foliage is so much bigger and lusher once it's added.

The Swords will get enormous in time and really have to go.
I have the same species as the one in the middle and it's now over 2 foot tall and about a foot wide

What to put in it's place? Hardscape !!

If you want a similar effect C.Willisii will be a similar shape to the amazon but a lot lot smaller. Echnidorous Parvaflorus "Tropica" is a simlar shape to the Green Flame but again it'll get no more then 6" tall.

The Polysperma will drive you nuts it grows so fast and it's too similar to the stricta. Any kind of Rotala would be a good choice there. Or Hemianthus Micrathenoides.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I can just imagine my wife's reaction when I tell her I have to redo the tank

Welcome in the club

I would assume that the black algae on the edges of the anubias was the beginning of BBA. Good that you upped the Excel at that point, it for sure had its greatest effect on BBA in my tank.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bernard - thanks for your comments.
I did some more hunting around for plant availability here, and here are some candidates I'm thinking of based on your suggestions:
- Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica' for midground, in place of the green flame sword. Will I need more than 1 of this plant since it's compact? Not sure how big it really gets in medium light (especially since it's on the bottom). The tropica profile also says "looks best in small groups". Maybe 2 plants?
- Hemianthus micranthemoides (pearl grass) in the midground to replace the amazon sword, or in front of the stem plants (right side).
- Rotala rotundafolia for background. Would it be better to put these on the side or middle of tank? I've read that red plants are best put on the sides.
- Bacopa caroliniana, but not sure where to put these, perhaps to the right of the stricta?
- Cryptocoryne parva as a foreground group. Any personal experience with this? Does it require as high light as say glosso?

I thought about using Stargrass or Mayaca on the back, but I don't think I have enough light to keep them happy.

Regarding lighting, currently I have a 36W & 24W PC bulbs over this tank (2.6wpg). I've been thinking about using 2x 36W bulbs so I get good coverage across the length of the tank for both front & back (the 24W bulb is shorter so only covers half the tank's length), but I was afraid it will be too much light. Do you think I can get away with this light upgrade (to 3.1 wpg) with only 15ppm CO2 from the DIY mix?

I would assume that the black algae on the edges of the anubias was the beginning of BBA.

I don't think it's BBA as it is completely flat on the leaves (no hairy stuff). Almost looks like black paint marks on the leaves. Perhaps they're spot algae, just much darker green than normal so it looks black?

-P

- Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica' for midground, in place of the green flame sword. Will I need more than 1 of this plant since it's compact? Not sure how big it really gets in medium light (especially since it's on the bottom). The tropica profile also says "looks best in small groups". Maybe 2 plants?

Just make sure to get the "Tropica" variety this will stay real small, 2 or 3 would be nice. The "normal" Parvaflorous will get a bit bigger but still max at about 8" height.
Tropica size is dependent on light, but I've never seen get bigger the 4" tall and about same width. In shade it'll be half that or smaller.

- Hemianthus micranthemoides (pearl grass) in the midground to replace the amazon sword, or in front of the stem plants (right side).

Sounds good.

- Rotala rotundafolia for background. Would it be better to put these on the side or middle of tank? I've read that red plants are best put on the sides.

Just as long as it's not right beside the Repens. The colors will clash and cancel one another out. Have something green between the two.

- Bacopa caroliniana, but not sure where to put these, perhaps to the right of the stricta?/

Good spot the bacopa shape will contrast well with the bigger stricta or you can use this as a filler between the Indica and repens.

- Cryptocoryne parva as a foreground group. Any personal experience with this? Does it require as high light as say glosso?

No doesn't need much light at all. But it's one of the slowest growing plants out there so you'll need a lot , don't expect it to fill in by itself any time soon.

Should be ok with the light the extra lenght will give better spread moreso then added intensity. Change the DIY misture often to keep the Co2 high.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks, Bernard! Ever so helpful.
Next time we meet, drinks are on me! I'll even pay for your Guinness!

-P

Hi All,

Since this forum now has a lot of logs, I thought one more wouldn't hurt. I just wanted to share my experience in trying to get this tank to a point where I'm satisfied enough not to mess with it for a few months. And of course hoping to get advice from you guys.

Anyways, on Sunday during water change I did the dirty deed: removing the two swords. As expected, it was a mess. I haven't had a chance to order the plants to replace them, but the day before I found a decent piece of driftwood and also bought a bunch of rotala rotundifolia from a local LFS. I know I'll have to rescape again when I get more plants, so I just did a quick and dirty aquascaping. Also pruned the stem plants (ludwigia, hygros) ruthlessly. Here's the result:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/23g_20060220.jpg

Left side (rock is there to hold the DW down):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/23g_leftside_20060220.jpg

Overall, I'm pretty happy with how left-hand side looks. The hygro stricta in the corner will eventually shade the rotalas so will need to be pruned often. I'm thinking of putting some Hemianthus micranthemoides (pearl grass) in front of the rotalas (left-center) cover the bottom stems and fill the gap. What do you think?

Right side:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/23g_rightside_20060220.jpg

The right hand side needs desperate revamping. The DW/anubias combo will have to go (the DW is too big and looks too "dead" in that spot). Thinking of putting a couple of echinodorus parviflorus "tropica" in its place, and hopefully I'll be able to find a tall branchy driftwood for the right side. The hygro polysperma (right of aponogeton) will be replaced with bacopa caroliniana. Ludwigia repens will probably stay in the right corner since I don't know what else to put in its place (any ideas?).

Center: The aponogeton will eventually have to go too, but I left it there b/c it looks "ok" at the moment. Not sure what to put in its place (if anything). The center rock/anubias was just put there to cover up the empty spot. I'll try crypt parva as center foreground although it will probably take forever to get any coverage.

Any other suggestions to improve the scape?

Thanks guys!

-P

upikabu,

where I'm satisfied enough not to mess with it for a few months

That ain't gonna happen ever

For real, the tank looks nice now. Some comments:

- The rock that is holding down the wood doesn't look bad there at all, maybe you can try to make it a group of similar shaped, but different sized, rocks. That may make it look very natural.
- I would not put Pearl Grass in front of the Rotala, they would blend too much into each other. Pearl Grass, if left alone, will grow to quite some height. The tallest I had in my tank was easily 10 inches tall.
- The right side may look empty now, but I would wait with any major changes until the Ludwigia reaches a significant height. This way you can be sure that any change/addition will not conflict with it.
- The driftwood on the right doesn't look all that big in the pictures. Not sure if you should remove it. My experience is that hardscape tends to get eaten up by the vegetation and pieces that seem too large when there are no plants will in the end be just fine.

Question: that is a Crypt Wendtii in the left front, right? It looks great, mine have not reaches that size, and in particular that leaf count, ever. Even the ones that I have in my 29G since quite a while.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

The rock that is holding down the wood doesn't look bad there at all, maybe you can try to make it a group of similar shaped, but different sized, rocks. That may make it look very natural.

Hmm..that's a good idea, and something I didn't think of.

I would not put Pearl Grass in front of the Rotala, they would blend too much into each other. Pearl Grass, if left alone, will grow to quite some height. The tallest I had in my tank was easily 10 inches tall

Really? I've never seen Pearl Grass IRL, so I always thought it's more of a foreground/midground plant (I think that's what Dr. Bonke uses it as). I guess it will need frequent trimming to keep it low? Does it grow really fast?
I guess I'll have to look for another plant to fill that midground gap.

The driftwood on the right doesn't look all that big in the pictures. Not sure if you should remove it. My experience is that hardscape tends to get eaten up by the vegetation and pieces that seem too large when there are no plants will in the end be just fine.

The problem with that DW piece is that is that it is quite long and wide, so I have problem putting plants around it (there would be a major gap between plants in front and behind it). The only thing that *might* work is a rosette-type plant next to it on the left side, but something that only grows to medium height. Maybe e. parviflorus tropica will do the job? Or some crypt.

Question: that is a Crypt Wendtii in the left front, right?

Yup, it is. You can see the difference from the 2 months photo above. It's sending out runners quite often. It's just really happy there for some reason. Probably because it's the only plant I really haven't moved around ever and it's always been in a shaded spot.

Thanks for the comments/suggestions!

Cheers,
-Paulus



-P

Paulus,

Peal Grass . The tank is overall 24 inches tall, you do the math

Ingo

Attached Image:

Peal Grass

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I like the right side. It'll look even better when the stricta grows up again and contrasts with Rotala.

The left side is ok too, I'd just cover that wood and rock with more Anubias, have a nice solid mound there.

As for the Apon, what I'd actually do there is remove it but rather then replace with another background plant i'd put in small forground plants !
If the Apon was removed you would have clear visible space from the front to the back, so putting something small like Blyxa Japonica/Hairgrass/Tenellus there would still get light and be very visiable. Having foreground plants that far back with tall plants on either side will give a great sense of depth something that is lacking in a tank that size.
You'd then also have a nice island effect on either side.
You can put more anubias nana in front of the Rotala or let the foreground plants at the rear creep in there to accentuate the island effect.

I think that would work really well and give you an interesting 'scape.

If you don't like that idea then use the baby tears to replace the apon and more anubias in front of the rotala.


EDIT: If you like the island idea then I'd leave the foreground bare. You can use the parva in that Apon spot instead of the plants I mentioned, will work equally well, maybe better as it woudln't need maintenance to stop it creeping where you don't want it to go and it can take some shading.Just tighten up the wood/rock/anubias on the right and left hand side to make it solid looking. A sprinking of small river rocks (no more then an inch in size) in the forgeround and between the islands for a natural ungroomed look to finish it off. Sweet.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Peal Grass. The tank is overall 24 inches tall, you do the math

Thanks, Ingo. Definitely scrapping the idea of them in front of the rotalas.

Bernard - thanks for your suggestions. I thought about shifting the center rock/anubias to in front of the rotalas before I read your reply. That might work.

You'd then also have a nice island effect on either side.

Funny you should mention the island effect, because I just did a similar thing on my 15g a couple of weeks ago (well, before I moved the tenellus there from the 23g):


It was not planned, just something that I did at the spur of the moment while doing a water change (since I was so bored with the old scape and couldn't think about what to do with the DW).

Anyways, back to this tank, I think you're right that the current space screams for island effect. I think I'll try the crypt parva & small rocks in the middle. Tenellus just grows too fast IME, it's already starting to take over the middle space in my 15g less than 2 weeks after I put 3 little plants in. Speaking of tenellus, I read something on an Amano website yesterday that if you plant them in pairs instead of individually, it wouldn't grow as quickly. Can anyone back this claim with experience?

If you don't like that idea then use the baby tears to replace the apon

Do you really mean Micranthemum umbrosum (baby tears) or Hemianthus micranthemoides? Haven't considered the former. Does it grow tall? Looks a bit like bacopa in leaf shape.

Thanks!

-P

Sorry meant Pearl Grass not Baby Tears - Hemianthus.

Or for something long that won't get as big as the apon, try Blyxa Aubertii or Cyperus Helfiri.

That other tank is real nice. Yep that's pretty much what I meant. It works well for tanks that size as it really creates a sense of depth that would otherwise be lacking.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well,

That is is right, you could achieve a lovely island effect when doing what Bensaf suggests. But do you really want this tank to be structured like the other?

I for one thing would get pretty bored if all my tanks where layed out the same. Just for that reason (and not at all because I would think it is a bad idea in itself) I would say you should try some other layout.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

I thought about that too. However, the island/concave layout is probably easier to maintain than say the triangle or convex (high in the middle, low on the sides) layouts, and ease of maintenance is important to me. Anyways I need to sleep on it.

Thanks!

-P

An update after almost 3 weeks of DIY CO2:
1. The first week (using the stock mixture that came with the Red Sea kit)
- lots of pearling daily
- plants started to show much faster/fuller growth by the 4th day
- quite a bit of brown & green spot algae on the front glass
- CO2 production around 1 bps (pH 7.0, KH 5 = 15ppm CO2)
2. The second week (still using the same Red Sea mixture; 50% W/C at the end of first week & clean algae from glass)
- pearling still evident, but not as much as the first week
- plants still showing excellent growth daily, especially the fast growing stem plants (hygro, ludwigia). Swords are producing one new leaf a day.
- no algae at all forming on the glass. Practically algae free the entire week!
- CO2 production slowed to around 1 bubble per 2-3 sec (but pH still stable at 7.0 or thereabouts - hard to get exact from AP test kit)
3. The third week (50% W/C at the end of 2nd week; changed the DIY mixture to my own - 2 cups sugar, 1/4 tsp yeast - at the end of day 2 of the week or day 16 total; also removed the 2 big swords & added rotala rotundifolia so plant mass reduced)
- pearling slowed quite a bit with the old mix, but picked up again with the new mixture
- plants do not grow as fast, even after replacing the mixture. Perhaps plants are still adjusting to the new CO2 level?
- no algae with the old mixture, but on the first day using the new mixture, brown & green spot algae are evident again on the glass! I wonder if this is because the initial production of CO2 from a DIY mix is not yet stable? Perhaps it takes a few days for the yeast to produce CO2 at a more constant level.
- CO2 production slowed to 1 bubble per 5 sec on days 15-16, but with the new mixture it is now back up, to 1-2 bps (so more vigorous than the initial mixture). pH is definitely lower than 7.0, but not as much as 6.8 according to the color chart (maybe around 6.9 ~ 20ppm CO2)

Note: the fertilization regimen is exactly the same each week. 5ppm NO3, 0.5ppm PO4, & 10ppm K (from K2SO4) on W/C day (day 1), then 2ppm NO3 & 0.2ppm PO4 on days 3 & 5. 2.5mL Flourish & 2mL Flourish Iron on days 2 & 4. No dosing on day 6.

I found it interesting that the algae (esp. greens spots) only show up the first few days after a new mixture. If I'm not dosing enough PO4, surely it would've shown up on week 2 as well (esp. since the plant mass on week 2 is larger than week 1 due to the increased growth)? I will continue to monitor this to see what happens on week 4.

Just as an interesting side note (at least to me ), the big apon has been throwing out a few very long, thick stalks, which I seem remember from LF's log (oh maybe 3000 or so posts ago ) as a flower stalk. The first stalk didn't grow out of water and did not produce a flower; instead it became a dark green leaf on the water surface. The second stalk somehow found its way out of the tank and yesterday I saw this:


-P

Hi upikabu
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/27106.1.htm?4#You probably already read this thread, but in case not, I thought I'd let you know. The 1st reply gives a link to a good C02 article, if you haven't seen it. Haven't had time to read it all yet, but did briefly see the air stone method was not recommended. So, there goes that idea for my tank.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

Yes, I've read that article (quite a few times ). That's actually where I got my current DIY recipe (2 cups sugar, 1/4 tsp yeast), except I didn't use the special yeast they mentioned. I didn't see the air stone mention though, so thanks for that, I'll have to re-read it again.

Cheers!

EDIT: Just read the air stone mention, I think they're referring to regular air stone though, which doesn't produce fine enough bubbles. I assume the one that comes with your JBL system is a micro-bubble airstone (otherwise they really ripped you off!). Some people, including Tom Barr (aka EI "pope", have recommended using specialized micro-bubble air stone (like the Sweetwater brand found in the US).

-P