FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Simple question I guess. Have a 15G with 2 Dwarf Gourami, a rapidly reducing number of Neon Tetra's and a v.small catfish thingy (ok, I'm not sure of the type but it is about 1.5 times the size of a neon).

Anyway, introuded 10 Neon's to the tank along with the Dwarf Gourami about 10 days ago. There were 4 neons already in the tank (total 14) and have had constant die back of the neons to the point where there is now only 4 (whether they are the original 4 is hard to tell).

What is perplexing is the body count (ie. bodies removed from tank) is only about 4, all the rest of the bodies have "mysteriously" disappered -- i gather they were eaten quickly by the dwarf gourami's but can not be certain...

My question is ... any ideas as to what has happended to my neons and anything i should do to prevent it occuring again when i restock..

Check the filters, they could of got sucked up. I dought dwarf gouramis could swollow a neon. They struggle to eat bloodworm.:lol:
What's your water parameters? Maybe they died because they weren't used to the water and then the other fish ate them leaving not much of them left

gavind65,

I also doubt that Dwarf Gouramies would eat the Neons, except if you bought really small ones (then just maybe).

More likely to me seems the possibility that they died because of other reasons (is your tank cycled, how long is it set up for already) and later have been eaten by other fish. Check all equipment first though, you want to remove as many bodies as you can in order to avoid "poisoning" the water.

Neons here in the US can be a problem, sometimes they are in such bad shape that even very experienced aquarists have trouble keeping them alive after adding them to a tank.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I agree with the previous posts, I couldn't imagine the DG's eating the neons.

How much cover is in your tank? I have 8 neons with 2 DG's and when I first added them to the tank I was sure that I had suffered heavy losses to my neons, at one point I thought I only had one left, but it turned out that they were just hiding, and weren't visible until I started moving the rocks etc around. Now they're settled and used to the DG's all 8 happily come out in the open. It could be that you've only lost the 4 that you've fished out - which could be attributed to the reasons given above.

Just trying to keep positive.

Thanks guys. Bit more background, the tank is relatively new, probably 3 weeks old when I introduced the Neon's and Gourami although I had started the cycle with water from another tank; around 25% of the volume of the tank and the original 4 neons. I had thought that this would be enought to get the cycle going quickly, was I wrong in this assumption ?

Anyway gave the tank a week or so to settle down and introduced some more neons and the Gourami and it took at least another week for the neons to start to die off.

I sort of guessed that the Dwarf Gourami weren't eating the Neons straight away, but i was trying to establish what was happening to the bodies in such a short time frame (ie. overnight !!!) Could they have picked away at the bodies ???

Now obvious signs of disease in the existing fish, nor on the 2-3 bodies i have managed to extract.

Gave the tank a good clean and no obvious sign of bodies in the filter or the substrate either -- although there did seem to be a high level of "muck" in the foam section -- possibly remains, hard to tell.

Off to the LFS to get a test kit as it is likely to be water quality and/or nitrate cycle. I knew in the back of my mind that this is what it was likely to be and that that I needed one but have always managed to keep the other tank (a little less than 10G) going ok without it... What should I ensure the kit has ?

thanks for your help,

Gav

btw -- down to 2 neons now

Moving water from an established tank won't cycle the new one. What you really need is the gravel, big ornaments or plants. This will help hasten the cycle much more as that is where the bacteria live.
Likely the Neons are dying and going up the filter and or getting eaten.
Second guess...what kind of catfish thingy?? A pleco or cory will do in a corpse pretty fast. Any bigger mouthed catfish will eat small fish like candy.

what kind of catfish thingy

That was my first thought when reading your post. Can you look on the profiles here and try to ID it? Or can you post a picture?

IMO a dead fish, especially a small neon, can waste away pretty quickly. A pleco or cory will help that. I had about 8 neons in my 10g before and they would hide in my plants so unless I really took the time to count them, I didn't know how many I still had. One time I did lose one and found it a few days later, or atleast what was left of it.

Neons really aren't the best fish to cycle with. They can be pretty sensitive, so they wouldn't be my first choice. That is probably why you are losing them.

I would get a test kit that contains atleast a test for: NitrAtes, NitrItes, Ammonia, and pH. If you have a planted tank, you will need Phosphate test and GH/KH test.

Having a test kit will tell you where you are in your cycle. And when your tank is finished cycling, it will let you know if you have lost any fish (if they go missing) by registering ammonia. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a good master test kit that has all the essential tests I mentioned. It is not that expensive and easy to use.

My guess to the missing neon is that it died as a result of the cycling tank and either the "muck" you found was the remains, or the catfish cleaned it up.

*Kristin*

Thanks for your help so far.

"catfish thingy" is, I think, a Bristlenose Catfish and perhaps not unsurprisingly appears significantly larger than when i first got him. How fast do these things grow.

Well, got my test kit and first test is:
Temp 28 Deg C
pH 7.6
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 3.0 ppm
Nitrate 40 ppm

Also added a planted piece of wood to add bacteria but also provide somewhere for the Gourami's to hide/shelter as they are somewhat aggresive to each other and I wonder if it is a territorial thing.

Anyway, from the looks of it the tank has not cycled, or am I reading things wrong ?

Yeah gavind65,

that doesn't sound too good

Either your tank is not completely cycled yet or (actually most likely that would be an AND) you are overstocked.

3ppm Nitrite is not good at all and 40ppm of Nitrate indicate insufficient water changes and/or overstocked tank, possibly combined with overfeeding. A BN can get to about 6 inches, if I am not mistaken, and he/she creates quite some waste.

What is your water change maintenance routine? Do you vacuum the gravel, if so, how?

I would in any way suggest a 50% water change as soon as possible. No matter where these values come from.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You are definitely still cycling IMO, near the end though.

40ppm nitrate is a little high. Do a 50% water change to lower the nitrates.
Bristlenoses are huge waste producers....probably what is contributing to the higher nitrates.

BN's like driftwood. Mine stays on it all day.

They get about 5 inches. I got mine when he was about 2.5 inches...now he is almost 4...and that was about 4 months ago (i think).

What are all the fish in the tank? That will help us determine if maybe you are overstocked.

Do the 50% water change...and then just monitor the parameters. I wouldn't do anymore after that, until your nitrites read 0. After that I would do a 50% water change and gravel vac weekly.



*Kristin*

Overstocked ?? -- 2 Dwarf Gourami, 1 Bristle Nose (probably about 1.25" long) and (now) 2 Neon Tetras in a 70ltr (15G+??) tank; i would have thought I could get a few more fish than that into it.

I change approx 20% of water weekly and vacuum at the same time. If my tank is not overstocked and feeding levels are ok (i believe they are) then it does point to an incomplete cycle me thinks even though it has been running for a little over a month now.

Should I still do the water change and how often do I need to check water quality? Would every 2-3 days be enough until it completes cycling?

The only thing that I can think that may have contributed to the nitrate levels is that I gave them a small pack of frozen bloodworms 3 days ago, and I only do this once a week -- this comes as a frozen cube about 1cm to a side and is the smallest package I can get and even then I am sure there is a fair amount of waste. Do you think they could have eaten all of it in one go or has it contributed to the waste as "overfeeding".

I agree your tank is still cycling it is a wonder any fish are alive at all.

The cure will be to do as advised a 50% water change add some Cycle or Bio starter as per instructions. Add the cycle at every water change.

This might and I did say "MIGHT"
50% now, then every third day a 30% water change for at leas three weeks, then a weekly 30% water change.

If possable take all those fish back or place them into an established tank, then buy 6 Zebta Danios.

At the end of each week clean the filter in the change over water(this is a must) it all must be done under 30 minutes to keep the bacteria alive.
Also add plenty of airation to the tank.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Overstocked ??

We didn't say you were overstocked. We just didn't know exactly what all was in the tank...or atleast I didn't.

You are still cycling. Follow Keith's advice on the water changes, to get the levels to safer numbers, so that maybe you won't lose your remaining fish.

The bloodworms probably add to the high nitrates. I use a whole block of frozen bloodworms for my 3 tanks (10g, 29g, and 55g), so a thats probably a little much for your fishies to eat. If you don't want to waste any, you can cut it in half and keep the unused half in the package until next time. Then feed them only what they will eat.

If possible I would take the neons back and get some danios. But, if you can't, then maybe the water changes will make the conditions better so that the neons will make it.

*Kristin*

Either your tank is not completely cycled yet or (actually most likely that would be an AND) you are overstocked.

That is a quote from myself. I made one mistake and should have been more clear, the "are overstocked" should have been "were overstocked when all fish were still alive." I would not recomment this stocking level on any 15G tank that hasn't completely settled (which can take up to 6 months) and without warning that frequent and proper amounts of water change will be a must.

I hope that clears it up,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Very much a case of "was overstocked" ... only one Neon left along with the 2 DG and the BC.

I have done a 50% water change and will do the 30%/3day as suggested. Unfortunatly I am not in a position to take the fish back or relocate them to another tank - will have to hope they pull through but am not holding my breath on the neon making...will continue to monitor water quality on each change, which i normally do before the change. Is this the best time or should I do it more regularly ?

Looking on the bright side, I can get something else now that I have less fish, any suggestions for partners for the DG and BC ? I saw some black knife fish... good partners with what i have left????

You definately would not be able to get a black ghost knife, they grow up to 20 inches!!! Not only that, they are nocturnal, you wouldn't see them very often. Most importantly, though, they aren't really a community fish and would definately consume any other neons you purchase.Right now in your tank, your dwarf gourami are your center piece fish, I'd wait until your tank cycles and then try building up your neon stock again.

I've got to echo Amanda there, the black knife would be way too big for your tank.

As a relative newbie myself, as well as reading and asking for help on these forums, I have found the profiles pages on this site very valuable. Have a look through those pages, see if there is anything there that takes your fancy and then you can see if it is suitable for your tank. It'll give you info on whether it is a peaceful/aggressive fish, how big you can expect it to get etc. You can then use the 1" per gallon 'rule' as a starting point only (I'm sure there are going to be replies saying to ignore this 'rule' altogether, but someone please tell me where else you start from?). A bit further research (which may well include posting on these forums) will let you know whether your chosen fish is suitable for your tank.

Probably the best advice I've picked up from this site (Calilasseia, I think) is a little research now will save you time, money and heartache in the long run. You can always ask your LFS to hold on to a fish for you while you decide on it's suitability.

Good luck in finding your 'perfect' tank

Well, if that last neon survives, I suggest building the school back up to 6. It wouldn't be happy if you added a different type tetra and left it by itself.

If you lose it, I suggest getting about 6 Harlequin Rasboras. They are peaceful, small, hardier than neons, and very pretty. I am suggesting only 6 because with them, the DG's, and the BN, you would be stocked.

Neons really do better the larger the group you can get. Usually at about 8 in a group they do better. They like a planted tank so they can hide. So, if that remaining neon does make it, maybe you could ask the LFS to take it, for no refund or exchange. I have given a few fish to my LFS that I couldn't keep. I didn't ask for anything in return, and they agreed to take them. Can't hurt to ask. I say this because you really don't have room for 8 or more neons. Yes they are small and don't produce much waste, but that BN does. He will keep your nitrates up and you don't want to overstock the tank again, by adding 8 more fish.

*Kristin*

OK, really cool fish -- how big is the tank i am going to buy for it ? Given it's predatory nature, what else could I put in with it, if anything ? I have to admit that my son and I saw it take one of the fish in the same tank at the LFS we decided it was for us

I am thinking of returning/donating the BN he seems like way to much trouble in this small tank. Could I keep the DG's and add, say 2-3 Cory's ?