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I fully agree with Azmentl, Frank has put a lot of effort into this reply. I think it should be tagged like many others in their respective forums.

An excellent article Frank what else could any one say.

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
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Frank. That as amazing! This should be in some kind of starters guide on this site. Thank you soooo much. If I were a woman (or better - a plant) I would kiss you!

Thanks Frank, You answered all of my questions. Im am going to start planting some plants tomorrow. ]

55gal Tank:130 watt coral lights,Eheim Wet/Dry 2227 Canister Filter,Powerhead, Co2 Injection and a heater.

Hi,
I was happening by, and noticed your post. This will be
a rather long response so grab a cup of coffee.

When you decide to put real plants in the tank there are
a number of things to consider.

First, the substrate (gravel) it needs to be the size
of regular gravel. By that I mean about a 1/16 to an 1/8
inch in diameter. You can go smaller (sand) but sand
can pose problems for the beginnner. Any larger than
an 1/8 inch and it becomes known as pea gravel and that
is on the edge of being too large. The spaces between
grains are too large. Plants have difficulties anchoring
themselves, and waste (fish poo, old food, and dead or
dying plant material) can get in to the spaces an rot.
If your gravel is in the right range, then the substrate
is great. Later, in another tank, you can consider a
different, more plant friendly substrate.
Substrates should be at least two inches thick at the
minimum and preferably three. This allows the plants
that grow larger and have large root systems, such as
the Amazon Swords, to spread out and flourish.

Having had the tank setup, with oscars, for three years,
I assume that all you did was a massive water change, and
then added the new fish. Oscars are messy eaters, and
produce large amounts of waste. The ones I had in my
55, you could have pan fried 'em for dinner! Without
some cleaning, and water changes, after the oscars, you
could have potential problems with water quality so
use something like a PYTHON and clean the gravel, and
change the water, if you have not already done so.

Read this site on substrates:
http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

If you are curious about how much substrate to buy,
use this site:

http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html

Simply plug in the numbers, and hit <enter> it will
tell you how many pounds you need for what size tank
and how deep the substrate.

Second, Light.

At first, you simply wanted enough light to see your
fish. Now with plants you also want them to grow.
To keep things simple, "we" break the plant light
requirements into three categories and put all the
aquarium plants into them.
Everything is based on what kind of lights the plant
requires at noon time (when the sun is at its peak
(intensity, and elevation)) and the environment that
it is naturally found in. Then, we use a measurment
that everyone is familiar with - watts. We all know
the difference in the amount of light given off between
say, a 15 watt light, and a 100 watt light. So, based
on all of that, we have come up with the three categories
of light and plants.

Low light. These are the plants that grow in streams
inside the jungle where the noon day sun can't quite
make it through the jungle canopy. Or plants that live
in constant shade.
Low light is considered, for our purposes, about
1 watt/gallon.

Medium light. These are plants that get some direct
sunshine during a part of the day. They live in places
where the sunshine can break through the overhead canopy
of leaves to shine directly, or indirectly, on the water
during some part of the day.
Medium light is considered to be about 2 watts/gallon

High Light. These are plants that are exposed to the
sun throughout the day. These are typically plants
that grow in clearings, or out in the open.
High light plants are considered to be 3+watts/gallon.

To figure out what your tank lighting system supplies,
simply total the watts of each bulb and divide that
total by the capacity of the tank. In your case you
would divide by 55.

Along with the "amount" of light, you would want to
consider the spectrum of light that you provide.
If you look at various light bulbs for aquariums, you
will find some that are specifically designed for plants.
Plants use light in the red and blue part of the light
spectrum. The red part is easily absorbed within the
first few feet of water, while the blue part penetrates
deeper into the water. Now if you choose a red and/or
blue bulb, your plants would love it, but you as a human
would hate it. Blue would wash out the color of the
greens and reds of the plants, and red light is just
plain hard to see in. Among other things lights are
rated by their Temperature, in degrees Kelvin. This is
what temperature a black body of metal would radiate
what color at. Aquarium bulbs come in various wattages,
and also at various degrees Kelvin. Bulbs in the 4000
to 5000K range give off a redish or purplish glow.
Bulbs starting at 10,000K and higher give off a progressivly
bluish glow. Probably the best to use is one that
gives off light in the 6700K to 8800K range. Light in
this range will give you the best color rendering. That
is the greens will be green, the reds will be red, and
the fish's colors will not be affected by the color of
the light they are viewed under. Generally speaking
light in the 10,000K range and higher are used in
Salt Water tanks that house invertebrates and corals.
These critters need the very intense light to produce
algae and nutrients that they have to have to live on.
Folks with these lights generally mix them with lower
K rated bulbs for asthetic reasons.
Just in case you are not aware, it is best to use
flourscent bulbs, they give off less heat, are available
in various "varieties" and come in standard "wattages."
You can purchase "plant bulbs" such as growlux and other
plant friendly bulbs at any Local Fish Store (LFS) or
you can simply go to the local hardware store and purchase
any bulb that is labled DAYLIGHT or SUNLIGHT. You do not
want a bulb that is "WARMGLOW" or WARMWHITE etc.
The daylight or sunlight bulbs are all around 6700K
and perfect for your tank, and in general are less expensive
than those "plant friendly" bulbs sold at the LFSs.

The lights for a tank should be on for about 10 hours/day.
Ideally, you can have two and run one set for the full
10 hours and the second set for four hours. The second
set would increase the watts/gallon, or intensity, to
simulate the sun as it approaches (10am) its noon day
peak, and drops off (2pm). But that is not necessary.

Plants (finally )

As I hinted at earlier, we have divided plants into the
three light demand groups. Once you have figured out
what your lighting is (how many watts/gallon) then you
are ready to shop for plants.

THE KEY to success, especially for beginners, is to choose
only plants that thrive within the watts/gallon area that
you are providing. It's a modification of choosing only
the fish suitable for the tank you are going to house it
in.

Go to this site:
http://www.azgardens.com/c-16-aquarium-plant-habitats.aspx

Choose the "easy life" habitate, and look at the plants
on the list. Write down the names of the plants that
catch your eye, and then look for them at your LFS.
The easiest way to ensure success would be to call
those folks, tell them what size tank you have, how
many watts/gallon and type (degrees K) light, and what
you want to achieve with the plants. They can suggest
plant packages directly suited for your tank and its
conditions.

Or you can shop online from any one of several places that
sell plants (Tropica, Drsfostersmith, BigAls, etc.) If you
do that, you need to know the difference in low,medium,
and bright light plants.

If you have "medium light" you can raise low light plants
most medium light plants, and even some high light plants.
But there are variables that only time and experience will
allow you to choose the high light plants that will or will
not work in your tank.

Hope this helps. Above all, if you have questions, ask.
And, READ. There are dozens of books on planted aquariums
and aquarium plants on the market, and... they make good
Christmas gifts (hint )

I deliberately stayed general, and was not specific on
plants. As you have read, the choice of plant depends
upon the light. There are dozens and dozens of low,
medium, and high demand plants on the market, and some
are very readily available.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 12-Dec-2004 11:41

Last edited by FRANK at 08-Feb-2005 21:14

Last edited by FRANK at 14-Mar-2005 10:34

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I would start with some of the more easier aquarium plants. I like the amazon swords which have been happily growing for me in less that 1 watt per gallon. Hornwort doesnt need any light and it still grows like a beast. You may not like it because it float. Another plant called frill is like cambomba in a way ,but it grows quite a bit faster.


Plants in gerneral need nitrAtes to feed on if you dont have a lot of those then you may want to add fish periodicly from another tank to increase the nitrAtes because with out them plants grow.

If you get some time i would pm FRANK as he is very good with plants and will be able to help you.

I've had my 55gal tank for almost three years now but i had an oscar fish that didnt like plants. He is now gone and i have started a community tank. I have decided to plant my tank because i dont like my fake plants anymore. Whats a good way for me to get started? I want the bottom to be covered and have a lot of flowing leaves. I have been reading about java moss and i think im going to givew that a try. I have guppies in the tank and that provides food and shelter for there fry. Is java moss a good or a bad thing to put in the tank? If its bad what other kind of plant could i get that would cover the ground?
Thanks,
Justin


55gal Tank:130 watt coral lights,Eheim Wet/Dry 2227 Canister Filter,Powerhead, Co2 Injection and a heater.

Great posts, Frank and Calli! I would add another great site for plants, http://www.tropica.com/. At the top right of the page, you will find an ADVANCED SEARCH button. Click it and you find yourself in a great search engine for the site. Plug in your tank parameters in centigrade and the metric system and it will guide you to a wide selection of plants for your set-up. I constantly refer to the site.

In converting to metric, divide inches by 2.5 to determine rough centimeters. In converting to centigrade, subtrat 32 from your tank temperature then divide the reult by 1.8 to get degrees C.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

That was awesome Frank. I learned a lot.

Can someone recomend a good book on planted aquariums for someone with no experiance in planted aquariums?

Thanks

-Eric
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

Hi,
I these are the books that I have in my library:

Plant Identification and Information:

Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (Diana Walstad)
Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, Vol-2 (Diana Walstad)
Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants (Peter Hiscock)
Encyclopedia of Water Plants (Dr. Jiri Stodola)
Aquarium Plants (Gehard Brunner)
Aquarium Plants Manual (Ines Scheurmann)

Aquascaping:

Enjoy Planting Your Aquarium (William Dewhurst M.D.)
Planted Aquariums (Christel Kasselmann)
Aquarium Designs Inspired by Nature (Peter Hiscock)
Nature Aquarium World books 1, 2, 3.
(Takashi Amano)

There are many others. Check Amazon.com for more.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank

-Eric
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

Read this site on substrates:
http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

Hi Frank,

Steve and I have disagreed and he's been wrong every time
This goes way back.
He later started pestering me to do all this research and never wanted to do the work himself.

The references for his claims I am familar with and personally know the researchers(except Dave H). They are based for natural systems. While plants in a typical natural system may take up most of the PO4 via the roots, the reality is we have complete control of the horticulture.

It's like comparing farming/agriculture to natural system for production and methods.

Aquatic gardening is just that, horticulture, not natural ecology, but even there, we find better applied research examples, we see that good high growths are maintained as long as there is ample nutrients in the water column as well as the sediment. I argue for both locations for nutrients, not this "either or" business. That is too simplistic and does not explain much nor makes sense on a number of levels.

Steve also believes that excess PO4 and NO3 cause algae.
Evidence for the last 10 years has shown otherwise and the research also shows no correlation either, see here below:

Read this guy, he's been around and was at the lab I worked at for the MS:

http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Bachmann/Bachmann.htm

http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Canfield/Canfield.htm

http://fishweb.ifas.ufl.edu/Otherstaff/MVHoyer.htm

Read the pdf's they will give you some new ideas.


Now that group of folks and the funding for aquatic sciences and the amount of folks specifically targeting aquatic plants we actually keep and grow is enormous, far more than all the references ever supported by any aquatic plant book ever written to date.

The area of research is also specific. It examplifies the best natural conditions that one might find an aquarium tropical plant and applied research.

A lake in Demark or Minnesota that freezes every year, is very deep, has only cold water species, large turn over events 2x a year is hardly applicable to a shallow tropical planted tank don't you think?
Plants grow much faster and cycle faster at warm temps, and grow very slow at cold temps.

I've answered all of these so called questions of Steve's in aquatic plant contexts.

"problems with transition after initial submergence
suitability of substrate types for various plant types
factors contributing to H2S toxicity
factors contributing to micro-nutrient toxicity
loss of substrate fertility
other factors causing long term degradation (toxicity)
strategies for enriching substrate fertility "

Steve does a decent job putting together the more organic approaches to substrates, but the conclusions are based on his own view rather than any experimental evidence he's done himself with controls.

This is true for most aquarist, the lack of controls and seeing if X does cause Y when you test the hypothesis really needs to be done if you plan to make any sense of things.

Otherwise you base the info on speculation, even if it's supported, the question now becomes is the support applicable and is it somewhat recent?

This is beyond the newbie's scope here, but they look for help and hopeful success with plants.

I focus on both the sediment and water column, this allows both areas to be optimized for plants and most newbies just want a decent substrate for their plants and honestly want to do what the experienced folks are doing.

They just wonder How and What to do.

That's pretty easy. There are quite a few methods out there, but organic soils etc are not that easy nor suggested for newbies.

They work and are great, but there are Flourite, Eco complete, ADA Aqua soil and plain sand.
These work well and amendments maybe added if desired.

I have issues when folks do not focus on the entire whole plant for growth. There are numerous methods to do so and various mechanism that control rates, efficacy of a method etc, but a holistic approach should be done if the person wants the best chance of success.

Several methods are out there, but few focus on both the water column and the sediment together, it's this "either or" business and divisions that cause issues and conflicting info for many newbies.

Plants all grow for the same reasons (some seem to want to claim otherwise), rates of growth may change etc, and they will take nutrients from either or both locations.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hi Tom,
It's great to hear from you again. I've noticed you have
been posting here and there in FP.

I was not aware of Steve's background and the article was
good. Only someone such as yourself would know if it was
founded on good scientific principles or on folklore.
Do you have a suggestion for a link on a similiar article
that might be more science and lab based?

I agree with your comments on Aquatic Gardening and
horticulture. I have glanced at the links, and have
decided that it would take months and months to wade
through all those PDFs. My first job will be to read the
abstracts and then go deeper in those that seem to apply.
My educational background is in Communications Electronics
(2 years) and geology (4 years). Some of the aquatic
gardening knowledge has been self taught over 50 years
of aquariums, and reading nearly everything I can get
my hands on. Diana's book was the point at which I
was able to put much of the puzzle together and make sense
of things. I've yet to purchase the second volume. I hope
it is as well grounded as the first, and takes things a bit
further.

When reading The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, I
realized that plants can extract nutrients from both the
water column and the substrate. Then I began to realize
that which, depended to some extent, on the particular
organic compound that the plant was trying to break apart
to extract the various elements. Carbon, for instance
can be obtained from breaking the bonds in organic
compounds, but it is much easier for the plant to break
the CO2 bonds from the injected CO2. The same holds for
the forms of Fe that is available in the tank, etc.
Thus, I had to revist my chemistry classes, and delve into
botany. All in all, it has been a time of continuous
education(mine).

As far as advice is concerned, I try to stay "generic"
when possible as the bulk of our readers are folks who
have a tank, and then decide that they want to add some
plants to make it look more natural. Some go no further,
while others, such as the folks who frequent this forum
are dead serious about their planted tanks and, like me,
want to know the "Why" along with the what should I do's.
When folks ask, then I go deeper.

Well, I'm off to read some PDFs.. Looks like I have my
work cut out for me.

Thanks for visiting.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Howdy Frank,

Sorry about that tone of my last post, I do it to provoke discourse butn rubs more than one the wrong way. Karen Randall was talking to me at the AGa event about that
She knows I do it on purpose, not due to a mean old guy that some think I am behind the screen

Yes, it does take time to work things through. It also takes....well ......work!! Imagine that! haha

Abstracts are good.
Most folks often just read that.

I like figures as they tell so much in such a small space and can be viewed many different ways.

I honestly do not have a better link, much of the advice and suggestions are good on Steve's site though.

It's more geared towards the organic side of things.
Diana did a much better job at her arguemnts and conclusions.

I'm not aware of her 2nd book but it will be well recieved even if I have not agreed with some of the speculation she alludes too.

I'm good with both CO2 and Non CO2 tank physiology and have brought them both together in terms of algae, plant growth, rate of growth and sediment vs water column and the synergism between the two.

This puts it all together and these methods are no longer seemingly the antithesis of eachother like so many think, even with 50 years in the hobby.

I hear you when it comes to generic response.
Hard to say and judge what they want.
I give them a lot to think about but the how is kept simple and their goals with plants are always upfront.

Give those a read, even old dogs can learn new tricks
And for other folks interested in more, knock your self out, you'll enjoy them, although it is very dense reading.

I often read things like this several times.

Regards,
Tom Barr

A QUERY FOR THE EXPERTS...

I HAVE BEEN RECOMMENDED BY MY LFS TO SET UP MY NEW TANK WITH ACTUAL DIRT OR SOIL ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK, BELOW A layer OF GRAVEL AND BELOW THE UNDER GRAVEL FILTER AND THEN TOP IT OFF REGULARLY WITH GRAVEL OVER THE FILTER IN ORDER TO GROW HEALTHIER PLANTS. TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS SOIL layer GOING TO IMPROVE MY PLANTS? IS IT A VIABLE AND HEALTHY CHOICE FOR MY TANK? IS IT A COMMON PRACTICE? AND IS IT REALLY GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE HAVING IT OR NOT?

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO THUS FAR AND WOULD APPRECIATTE ANY INPUT YOU CAN GIVE ME.

Hi,
Welcome to FP!

Generally you can layer the tank this way:
First on the bare bottom you put about an inch and a half
layer of a clay. Either Laterite, or a unscented, crushed
clay (sometimes called "Speedy Dry" and used by many
mechanics to absorb oil and other fluids).
I say an inch and a half because you want the total
substrate thickness to be 3 - 4 inches deep.
Over the layer of clay, you add an inch and a half of
regular aquarium gravel. This upper layer is commonly
referred to as the "Cap layer" and is designed to keep the
clay out of circulation and to provide a layer for the
plants to root into. The problem with the layering method
is that any time you break the integrity of the upper
layer either by pouring water in too vigorously, or
uprooting plants, you pull the clay from the bottom
through the cap layer and into the water where it will
cloud the water and take days, weeks, and even months,
before the water becomes clear again.

You should NEVER use "dirt" for your lower layer.
It contains all sorts of live critters of all sizes and
all sorts of organics that, once trapped under the cap
layer, would die and decay and cause you a problem like
you would not believe!

Living where you do, you should be able to get all the
Laterite you could ever want as the tropical jungles are
the source of the iron rich clay.

If you can, get a hold of Diana Walstead's book,
THE ECOLOGY OF THE PLANTED AQUARIUM, either volume one or
two and read it. It is the best primer for folks who want
to have what is called a "Natural Aquarium" and that uses
only soil, no gravel. You have to follow the book as
outlined, or you will wind up with a septic tank instead
of an aquarium.

Here is a site about substrates that you should find
interesting and informative:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/plant_substrates.php

Hope this helped...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Mr. Frank,

Thank you again for your reply and information. I`ve been keeping you busy!! I appreciatte your reference to Diana Walstead`s book and have added it to my must have list.

I`ll research the information and apply it to the 50 gallon tank currently setting up.

I am setting up a 50 gallon tank to host the population of my current 10 gallon tank. If you are intrested and want to follow up on the status of the tank and fish, please refer to this link: http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/32514.1.htm?0.9819176#

Thanks for all your help thusfar and hope to hear from you all in the near future.

Wow I cant believe this thread is so old and still going!

I take exception to Tom Barrs rant to you about Steve Pushaks WEB site. I didn't read there anywhere where you asked for an opinion on the subject. All you did was suggest people read the articles on his WEB site. His articles have quite a bit of validity. Steven was the Technical advisor of the Aquatic Gardners association for several years... a position I don't think Tom has ever held.

Its all old history since Toms post is a year old now, but it just sticks in my craw. Tom has his own approach to everything, but his is not the only way to go!

Diana Walstad has an interesting approach that is not for everyone either. It is certainly the opposite of what Tom Barr does though. She has only written one book. What you call volume two was her second edition, second printing of the same book. It has a few changes and updates, but thats all.

A newbie should not be presented with too much technical information. You will only be over welmed and discouraged. A good understanding of the basics will give anyone satisfactory results growing plants. Lighting, C02, and nutrients are the main issues.

This is the goal I have tried to reach in writing my column "The Planted Tank" in Freshwater and Marine Aquarium Magazine. There are lots of alternatives for substrates. There are different light levels one may reach for various results, and there are different ways of providing C02 and various levels of C02 will yield different results. And while there are different methods of delivering nutrients, all plants nust have the same nutrients in order to live. In fact every form of carbon based life contains the same elements and when ground to a pulp makes good fertilizer! Each of these subjects can be discussed in great detail on its own, and perhaps they should instead of being all lumped in this conversation.

I attempted to bring basic overviews to my WEB site several years ago, and perhaps it still is of help: www.aquabotanic.com and there are many other sites that talk about these issues.

The most important thing for anyone trying to grow plants is KEEP ASKING QUESTIONS! Don't be discouraged by obstacles, or intimadated by all the "experts". Not that Frank is intimadating!


Regards

Robert Hudson

Frank, I am considering a planted tank for my new 55g. I copied and pasted your article (among the various other great posts of yours) and intend to use it as my starting guide, in addition to getting a couple books on the subject. As always, thanks!

Hi Scott,
Welcome to the world of planted tanks! Thank You for your
complements and comments.
I look forward to reading your log and seeing the
pictures as the tank develops.
I wish you luck and hope that one day you
enter your tank in the annual AGA contest.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

This post definitely has multiple tones and fantastic information. I want to thank you Frank for all of your insite

Hi H!
Thank You, also, for reading these posts.
As you will notice, we have a bunch of folks who post
in Planted Aquaria that have become outstanding fountains
of knowledge and are backed up by their beautiful, planted
tanks. Many of the threads show their tanks from inception
through months and even years after starting.
While much of those posts contain banter back and
forth, they also contain a wealth of information, much
of which was found through trial and error,
or concentrated reading of published books and articles.

Take your time and read through them and I'm sure you
will uncover a wealth of information.

Sincerely,
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank! I have been! I love to see all teh different opinions on the same subject and why people feel the way they do! I don't think we can ever stop learning so I soak up all knowledge I can get my hands on!