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I bought 6 rummy nose tetras and 6 cardinal tetras for my 55 yesterday, and already I'm down to 3 rummy noses and 4 cardinals. Allright, I know that these two groups are some of the more sensitive of the tetras, so what can I get instead. Locally, I have seen Cochu's blue tetras, head and tail light tetras, and black neon tetras to name a couple that i'm interested in. Would these work better? My water params are perfect....0 ammonia,0 nitrites, 5 ppm nitrates, but my tetra schools fell apart in 24 hours. Will the remaining few be okay without the proper "amount" for thier school? I sure don't really want to go get more of these fish that so obviously just did NOT work out in my tank. The other fish are fine. 4 juvie angels, 6-7 platies, and my two blue rams who, by the way, just laid eggs for me today. Obviously my tank can't be that bad, but these tetras sure thought so. Pleas recommend some better tetras for me. I like the head and tailight. The black neons looked pretty cool too.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Both Head and Tail Light and Black Neon Tetras are very hardy fish, and they are unlikely to give you any problems.

Other Hardy species include Skirt Tetras, Bleeding Hearts, Silvertips, and Diamond Tetras.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

My parents had Skirt Tetras for the longest time. I'd say they are pretty hardy and have a good lifespan when compared to other tetras.

Inky

Black neons are very hardy and peaceful. One of my favorites that I definitely recommend for most any tank that is suitable for tetras. Cochus are also very hardy and I absolutely love their color but they are not so peaceful. While mine have never nipped they are at least mildly antisocial, extremely active, and will charge any other fish in their tank. A great fish for a somewhat more active or very slightly agresive tank but not as good for mixing with more sensitive peaceful tetras like rummies and cardinals. They do seem to get along well with rams and angels though provided you don't add too many blues to the tank. Skirt tetras have a bit of a reputation of being nippy so I wouldn't really suggest those at all for your tank. I haven't kept head and tail lights so I don't know how hardy they are but I haven't heard of them being anything but peaceful.

If you can add to the cardinal school that would be great but try looking for a different source. With cardinals you can get hardy ones or very sensitive ones depending on where they came from. Rummies are almost always difficult so unless you have some extra cash, naturally soft water, and know a really good source for healthy rummies I'd just keep what you have and hope they get along fine.

Well they're dropping like flies. I'm down to 2 cardinals and 3 rummies. I don't think I'll be getting anymore of either one. This LFS is a good one and they're the only ones that have these. They're just not the fishes for me.

I think I'm going to do some black neons and maybe a few Cochu's blue. Thanks for that tip on them sham. My angels wouldn't allow a fish to harrass them, IMO, and my rams are in hiding and doing egg duty. They're a little on the moody side if they think someone is getting too close to their eggs.

I feel terrible that all these fish have died.... Both for the poor fish, and for me....$24 out the window. Oh well, I guess everyone learns, sometimes the hard way. My son sure did like those rummies too. I just have to remind him that he already has fish that have red on them....the cherries in my 29 are his. I have never had anything like this happen before, so I'm going to chalk it up to overly delicate fish and move on.

Might also do a school of head & taillights. I've still got room in there....I'm moving the platies outta there...they're on my nerves already.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Red,

Despite "perfect" parameters, you are losing new fish. So, what could possibly be wrong?

1. Stress from shipping. How long has your lfs had the fish prior to the sale to you?
2. Stress from acclimatization. How did the lfs acclimate the fish when they arrived? Did the lfs measure bag parameters and record them? If so, what was the change in pH and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) from bag to display?
3. How did you acclimatize the fish? See 2 for further questions.

I have had problems with fish mortality on their arrival from shipping or a lfs. Out of curiosity, I decided to test the bag water and compare it to my aquarium. It was ugly!

TDS, a measure of hardness, in the bags was over 1600 microsiemens (conductivity). My tanks test at 300 ms. pH was 6.6 in the bag, my tanks are 7.6 ppm. Ammonia was 0.1 ppm in the bag but because the pH was acidic, it was actually ammonium a compound much less toxis than ammonia but that freely converts to ammonia when the pH rises as in mixing tank water at 7.6 pH with the bag water.

I deduced that I was killing the fish by acclimating them too slowly and by not neutralizing the ammonia as it converted from ammonium wirth the rise in pH. The new procedures are:

1. Bag o' fish is decanted into a 5 gallon bucket,
2. Water tested for TDS,
3. Bucket treated with AmmoLock to bind ammonium,
4. Drip system to very slowly mix bag water with tank water.

The drip system equals the bag volume in 30 minutes. Acclimatization for sensitive fish is complete when bucket TDS is within 100 ppm of tank TDS. The time period is 2.5 hours to go from a TDS from 1600 to 386! I never worry about temperature... and now I rarely (never) have losses!



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Bob, thank you so much for your reply. You struck many chords here and I agree with your assesment totally.

1. I couldn't really speak to how long the particular fish I purchased were there. I know they got a bunch in last week and I think these were from that batch.

2. No clue on this one. I would have no idea how they go about acclimating shipped fish into their displays....it's probably not the greatest knowing what I know about most fish stores down here. I'm thinking float bag for 20 minutes, dump fish in.

3. I did my usual acclimation procedure. I tested the gH and pH of the bag (gH was the same 300 ppm) our typical tap water around here. The pH was a little lower (6.8 in the bag vs. 7.2 in my tank) so, I floated the bag-o-fish in the tank after pouring out store water into bucket, and went in every 5 minutes or so over an hour and added my tank water, slowly, to the bag. After netting the fish, I added them to the tank andturned out the lights. I never thought to test the ammonia and that perhaps, with the water being on the acidic side, that, if ammonia was present, it would be the less toxic ammonium. Gee, that is a really good heads up for the future as I do keep Prime on hand at all times.

The first DIT (dead in tank) was the next morning, and it just went from there. I think you are spot on on both the shipping stress, acclimitization in the LFS, and acclimitization to my tank. I could control my end of it by using your system, which sounds fantastic and not that hard, but how does one control the LFS end of the equation?

Would it maybe be best, for future sensitive fish purchases such as these, to order from online and have them shipped direct to your home thereby, eliminating the doubt on the shipper to store tank to your tank problem? Or maybe, have the LFS call when their fish shipment arrives so that a trip can be made to pick up the fish before the are de-bagged into the store tank?

I think this may be why I would like ideas on hardier tetras....I'm not ready to order online just yet and I don't know if the LFS would call be before de-bagging....they were supposed on my rams and they didn't. Fortunately, I only lost 1 out of 3 rams purchased. The other two are now guarding their eggs in my tank. /:'

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Serpaes are very hardy also imho. My acclimation of fish leaves alot to be desired, in the 30 or so I've had over the years, I've never had a problem. (no I didn't kill them) I move alot and alot of my favorite LFS's get free fish on every move.

Bob

1. Bag o' fish is decanted into a 5 gallon bucket,
2. Water tested for TDS,
3. Bucket treated with AmmoLock to bind ammonium,
4. Drip system to very slowly mix bag water with tank water.

I get everything, except how you make the drip system work. I can imagine using an air-line to siphon out tank water into the bucket, but how to make it drip & not run freely? Are you able to give me any tips? Thanks.

Cheers
TW

Sorry about the losses Melissa!

I went through the same thing with my Rummies. I bought 6 originally and now just have 4. I even ordered 6 from a LFS, but they all died. Rummies are very e to shipping stress, so that's why you end up losing some. I hope your remaining 3 make it. It is very frustrating to spend money on fish and have most of them die.

Head and tailights are very hardy. I still have my original 8 that I started with a year ago. They were the first fish in my 55g tank. I also have them with 3 angels and they have never nipped or chased them.

Flame tetras, also called Von Rios, are also pretty hardy and non-nippy. They play amongst themselves and are greedy eaters, but never bother anyone. I got 10 about 4-5 months ago and still have 9. I'm not sure why the other one died though.

Glowlight tetras are pretty hardy. I added them to my 29g a couple weeks after it was finished cycling. I lost one in the beginning but still have the other 7, 6 months later.

Or maybe, have the LFS call when their fish shipment arrives so that a trip can be made to pick up the fish before the are de-bagged into the store tank

When I ordered my second batch of Rummies (different LFS from the first), I picked them up when they got to the store. They never went into the store tank. I lost all 6 within a week.

Here's the explanation on why Rummies are so delicate...from Calilasseia in the post I made when I lost mine:

Rummy Nosed Tetras are difficult to breed in captivity. Persuading the parents to spawn can be achieved fairly readily by an experienced aquarist, but ensuring the survival of the eggs and growing the fry are notoriously difficult. For some reason, Rummies have probably the slowest growing fry of all the Characins - it's not unusual for them to need infusoria for up to twelve weeks after hatching. Only once they're past this stage do they start to pick up speed with respect to growth. Consequently, they're even more of a challenge than Neons and Cardinals to breed successfully in some respects. While getting Neons and Cardinals to spawn in the first place is a work of art, once you have eggs and fry, they're only moderately difficult to raise. With Rummies, your troubles are only just beginning as a breeder once they've spawned.

Singapore suppliers hit upon a trick to speed up growth. Raise the temperature of the aquarium to a whopping 40°C, and force oxygen into the water using pure oxygen tanks. This speeds up the growth rate considerably (and since Rummies are something of a 'hothouse' fish, they'll stand this treatment - it's cool temperatures they don't like as a rule), and means that a Singapore breeder can ship Rummies at a saleable size in about six weeks instead of six months!

However ... quite a few of the Rummies that are 'hothouse raised' as fry are shipped out ... and transferred with precious little acclimatisation to 25°C water, having spent their first weeks of life hothoused at 40°C. Oh, dear.

You can guess what effect that has on the poor fish.

I'm fortunate in that my LFS, when he gets Rummies, gets them from a wholesaler who knows about this hothousing trick, and spends a week winding them down to normal temps before shipping them to retailers if they're Singapore stock. But not everyone does this. So, what could well have happened with your Rummies was the tragic scenario of:

[1] Singapore breeder hothouses the fry at 40°C;
[2] Singapore breeder ships them out;
[3] Wholesaler receives them and transfers them to 25°C;
[4] Wholesaler passes them on to retailer;
[5] Retailer sells them to you;
[6] You end up with dead Rummies keeling over from massive temperature change shock.

Once again, it pays to know your fishes' provenance!

If, on the other hand, your stock comes from Florida, then this scenario shouldn't be a problem. However, something transport shocked your Rummies by the sound of it, and without following them along the supply chain, if your stock came from a Florida breeder, then we're in the realm of the unknown again.

Quite a few dealers in the UK avoid stocking Rummies if they know they're getting Singapore stock, because of the mortality resulting from lack of proper 'winding down' from the hothousing stage. It might be a good idea if US dealers and wholesalers put pressure on the Singaporeans to 'wind them down' at source before shipping them out ...

Its bad what they put them through to breed them.

*Kristin*

Wow, sounds like it almost be better to try to get a hold of "wild" stocke rather than worry about all that.

These are DEFINITELY not the fish for me. I like them, but I can't take the loss. I have 2 rummies left and 1 cardinal. I know, I know, they need to be schools, but I can't spend that kind of money again on a such a rsiky proposition. The cardinal is hanging out with the rummies who, at this point, seem to be okay. Everybody is eating and swimming. I'll get some other, more hardy tetras and pray that they let the stragglers here hang with them.

Thanks for referring me to that post by Calilasseia, it was very, very informative....as always.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

I know, I know, they need to be schools

I only have 4 in my 55g. They hang out together and with the other tetras. I haven't been able to locate any more.

*Kristin*

A few tips:

Rummies are indeed EXTREMELY susceptible to shipping stress -- because, like many other tetras, when frightened they exude a chemical which in turn triggers a feeling of fear in the other members of the school to warn them of the presence of an enemy. The difference is that Rummies -- unlike any other fish I've ever encountered -- give off so much of the stuff that in any small space they can very easily literally frighten each other to death within a few minutes. I would definitely not give up on them -- once you get them home, they're not all that hard to keep -- but I'd buy them myself from a store and transport them home in a fairly big bag, preferably covered up so they can't see anything outside (and for God's sake don't put any other fish in there with them). One useful trait: when the water conditions aren't to their liking, they will warn you by having the bright red color on their faces fade dramatically.

The problem with Cardinals is different; they simply expect (like Rummies) fairly clean water. One quirk of theirs that I've also discovered the hard way is that they are extremely sensitive to even the tiniest trace of mild soap or detergent that gets into the tank -- I once got a couple of drops of mild hand soap on a thermometer in a 50-gallon tank, and the next day I'd lost $20 worth of Cardinals while the other fish seemed unharmed. (It took me a day to figure out what had happened.) But if you take precautions on that (which you should anyway), and keep your water fairly clean, you should not have any trouble keeping either fish. (I've also read that Cardinals do not ship well over long distances; you might also try buying them from a store.)

One caution: I have also had serious trouble in the past keeping Cochu's Blues, and in fact would call them more sensitive to water conditions than either Rummies or Cardinals. This weakness, however, may be limited to the wild-caught ones; it's only lately that captive-bred ones have hit the market in large numbers, and they seem tougher. As for Black Neons and Head-and-Tail Lights, they have a well-deserved reputation for toughness.

(And if your water is good enough for Rams to lay eggs in, it is surely good enough for ANY of these species. I think the trouble may be just that neither Rummies nor Cardinals ship worth a damn.)

Even if your Rummies are of excellent provenance, and aren't the 'hot housed' ones from Singapore (or your wholesaler has 'wound them down' properly) the issue of transport shock is a major one with this species.

My LFS always wraps his fishes after bagging them so that they are in total darkness. This calms the fishes down, and so they are less likely to exude stress pheromones, which in the case of Rummies are particularly powerful, as Bruce Moomaw cited above. If your LFS doesn't wrap the fishes to keep them dark, you must do it yourself. Take along with you some sheets of newspaper from a large broadsheet newspaper (something big like The International Herald Tribune), and when the fish are bagged, wrap each bag in several sheets and secure with sticky tape. Ensure that the fishes are in total darkness after you've wrapped them. This will go a long way toward mitigating against future losses.

It's a good idea to do this even with the hardy fishes, as they are less stressed when they arrive in your aquarium, and have more resilience on tap to handle the transfer. With Rummies, it's essential to do this. If you don't keep your Rummies in the dark during transit, transport shock will run through them like Ebola.

Even well cared for Rummies that you're moving from one of your own aquaria to someone else's need this degree of care when moving them. Otherwise, they'll keel over at the destination.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I thank you guys so very much for those eloquent explanations. That is some very important information to have for next time.

Could this stress hormone in the rummies rference in you guy's posts be responsible for a tank disaster such as the one I'm having discussed here in this thread?:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/29641.1.htm?0.96972#266625

Just wondering....it would explain a lot.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

See my answer in that thread Crazyred. It'll be an eye opener.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I have also had serious trouble in the past keeping Cochu's Blues, and in fact would call them more sensitive to water conditions than either Rummies or Cardinals.

I've never lost a cochu and the store that always gets them in has only lost 2 in 6months of ordering them. So far they are turning out to be the hardiest tetra in my area and even the black neons and congos I've kept have died more often than the cochus. I think there is a huge difference in wild caught cochus versus those raised in a tank with many of the same species. They seem less likely to nip, more tolerant of each other, and much hardier. When I was checking around to other stores for more of these fish the first thing I asked was whether they were tank bred or wild caught and if they couldn't tell me they were tank bred I just walked out. I didn't take any that weren't known to be tank bred and I've had no problems with them except they are a bit e to tank jumping. Keep a top on unless you put in alot of effort to provide plenty of hiding places near the surface and some plant cover over the top.

The Cochu's I've seen around here were at PetSmart, and a fish buddy of mine in town bought all of them that they had at the time (no wonder there weren't any when I went to get some. ) He said they were all alive and doing very well, not one single death. He mentioned that were a bit nippy, but nothing major. Once I get my tank problem solved to my satisfaction I may give them a try.

They looked a little pale in the store vs. the pics I've seen on the net....do they color up better once at home in a nicely planted tank or what? They looked healthy, just not the vivid blue I've seen in pics....of course fish pictures can sometimes be manipulated to make a fish look more colorful than it really is to make a sale.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

If the fish are in a bare tank at the dealer's, then this won't show them off to advantage. Lemon Tetras are a prime example - they look insipid and washed out in a bare tank, but put them in well planted surroundings and give them six weeks' intensive feeding with live food and colour flake, and hey presto, little sunshine coloured jewels emerge swan-like from your previous ugly ducklings.

I suspect that if you run with Cochu's Blues, the same will apply - once given happier surroundings and a good conditioning for the first few weeks of their life in their new home, they'll become little jewels.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

When you get them home they not only get a better blue color but also some more purple streaks near their tail fin. Usually all you see in the stores are the darker streaks near the tail and the body is washed out. They look even better if you put them in a planted tank. If mine weren't zipping around everywhere constantly or if I had a better camera I'd get some pictures.