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How do you lower the Ph from 8.6 to about 7 or a little higher? I use tap water so I need to lower it for the new fish I am going to get. I don't want to use the types of chemicals like "Ph Down" or anything like that: I have heard that it can harm your fish.

Other products that you have tried are OK but I want to stay as natural as possible, that way I can just remove the *thing* if I am going to get fish that require a high Ph.

~Mo


~Morgan~

Hi Mo,
You don't say anything about the tank size but without
using chemicals, the best way is to dilute the water with
either Distilled Water, or Reverse Osmosis Water (RO).

It will take some experimenting to find out the ratio of
tap to "other" to obtain the desired pH, but once you get
the ratio down pat, then it will be smooth sailing with
each water change after that.

Unless you are dealing with wild caught fish, or sensitive
fish, you actually probably, don't need to lower the pH.
In most cases they will acclimate to the new pH quite
easily, especially if it is done slowly.

If you are purchasing the fish locally, and then adding
them to your tank, I would suspect that they are already
living in water very similar to yours.

However, thats all conjecture based on lack of information.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Sorry about that Frank, I thought the tank size wouldn't be too important if I was just going to ad a special rock or something similar.
The tank size is a 20g tall.


~Morgan~

CO2 can drive pH down but it would have to be a pressurized tanks system and they can be costly and maintaining the reg can be tricky if you don't know what your doing. You can shop around and find top quality products at a good price but you have to look at make sure .

My water here in Miami,FL is 8.9 and I use CO2 to keep it at 6.5. Complete system ran around 275.00 but took months to find everything at cheapest price.

Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Hi Mo,
I don't know of any rock/mineral that would safely lower
your pH. The carbonates will increase it though.

Depending upon the chemistry of your water, injected CO2
might be another way. However, the higher the Carbonate
Hardness (KH) the more CO2 you would need. The KH is a
measure of the buffering ability of your water. If it was
low, around a 1, then it would not take much to lower the
pH. If it was a 3 or higher, it would take much more and
might cause problems.

Peat Moss would also lower your pH, but again, how much
would depend upon the KH of your water. Peat Moss would
also tend to color your water from a light yellow to a
brownish color.


Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

What problems are you talking about Frank. My KH is 3 and I use one 10 lb tank of gas in 14 months. Now I do have it hooked up to a pH monitor and controller. It has been running for over a year. The only problem I have come across is a pH lock were it sets a 6.4 and drops ever so slowly never raising up like usual. A WC takes care of that (even thought I take 10gal out of 55 every week) sometime I have to let it set over night and an additional 5 is removed the next day. This is the only tank I control this way and I was seeing if I can create a closed system without buffers. They only thing I use in the tank is chlorine and chloramine remover to WC water. I have less problems with this tank than the ones i use the 7.0pH buffers by kent marine or seachem. Now CO2 System is expspensive so most can't afford or want to afford it so many people just look but don't touch. I myself had to see for myself if i could design a tank with out buffers in water that comes in at 8.9 with a kh of 3. I have less maintenance with this one. the only real problem I have is plants going to quick and not being able to Vacuum the gravel because of the plants, but I us UGF and can always reverse flow, now I need find a good RF power head. Or design a pump system to the job better.

Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Hi,
Problems...
If your KH is high it will take more gas to lower the pH
to the desired level...possibly more $$ on a tight budget.

If your KH is high, and you are using a small bottle (5#),
or even a larger 10# bottle, and do not have a spare,
all charged and ready to go, when the bottle runs out,
the pH will climb very rapidly 2 - 3 full points within
an hour (personal experience) and stay high until you -
1. recognize the problem, and 2 take the
bottle in, get it refilled, and reconnect it.
Most newcomers do not have a controller. Many don't even
have a pH monitor and instead test once (in a while) for
pH. When one gets busy, one does not always look at the
regulator gage to see how much gas is remaining in the
bottle.
At the place where I take my bottles (note plural) they
fill only on Saturdays. If the bottle runs out on a Monday
you're stuck. The yoyo of the pH leaping up 2-3 full
points, and then plummeting back down when the full bottle
is placed back into the system can produce problems as far
as stress to the fish and possible Ich outbreak.

All of these "Problems" are easily handled by someone
experienced, but could cause chaos (possible problems)
to a newcomer to the hobby.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

OK, I had thought there when you said "problems" that problems were I don't know, that why I asked. I have read a lot of your posts and you give good info, and back it up with facts/web sites. I have tries to model my replies after you and longhairgit and a few others. Not copy but give places where newbies can do the research and see for themselves. Not that my opinion always agree with what others say. I did how ever get the books you refer me to on another posting and have discovered a few new things which is why I asked you maybe you know something i don't know.

On, Lighter point I'm in the process of designing a Co2 manifold that will allow individual solenoid and controller for multiple tanks off of one tank. All I have been able to find online have been the group needle valve manifolds. These will not work for this that of pH control. If you know of such a thing that is already made please let me know who makes it.

Thank You Frank
Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Hi,
You know, I don't think that it would be all that hard
to kludge together.
You would want a manifold which could be a piece of
pipe. Thread it and use plumbers tape on the threads and
then cap it off. Drill and tap it for a small piece of
pipe that would act as a nipple to push the hose onto.
Thread the smaller pipe, tape it, and tighten it into
the manifold Do that with as many nipples as you have
tanks. Next, clamp the manifold assembly to a
support such as a piece of 2x4 or something else
with clamps such as those one would use to hold
conduit in place.

Connect the output line from the regulator to the manifold
and then connect the individual outputs to the controller
solenoid valve input, and connect the output to the various
reactors or diffusers. In this instance you would have to
use either or and not mix reactors/diffusers off the same
manifold. Energize all the controllers and adjust the
output of the regulator for the desired number of bubbles
per second.

With all the tanks receiving CO2 you want to adjust for the
required number of bubbles. Then, when one of the tanks
reaches a preset cutoff the number of bubbles would
increase in the others. That would not matter however as
the controller for each tank will simply cut off the CO2
at the appropriate point. They would just turn on and
off as needed. There would be no damage to the regulator
from them turning off and on as long as the regulator
could maintain a constant flow in an "open" situation, that
is, with all the controllers open and feeding a diffuser
or reactor.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

well, without the use of CO2, I use a buffer in my water that lowers it. my waters PH is a steady 7.6, I slightly buffer each 5 gallons that goes in, and it lowers it to 7.2 ... I also have driftwood in my tanks that drop it a little more. I don't know that a buffer or driftwood that will take your PH down that much though, as my driftwood and buffer only drop it by .5 ph...

looks like you may have to buy distilled water when it is on sale or make friends with a LFS so they will give you RO water for cheap or free