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I'm at a loss at understanding this. My betta's home is supposed to be a 4 gallon biorb, which is were he was for about 3 months but for the past month he's been living in a 1 gallon bowl. Why you ask??? Well, about 6 weeks ago, I fed him some FD blood worms and he got super bloated. It was the consensus that the blood worms were the guilty party. Great! Easy fix, no more bloodworms. So, I gave him the pea treatment and all was well, for about 2 weeks. Then he got bloated again! Don't no why, I didn't give him any bloodworms and I made sure not to overfeed him. I moved him to a 1 gallon bowl to make it easier for the pea treatment and it worked its magic. He stayed there for a week, didn't get bloated and I thought he could be moved back to his biorb. Less than 1 hour in the biorb he got super bloated again!!!!! He's been in the 1 gallon bowl now for 1.5 weeks and no sign of bloat but I'm afraid of putting him back in the biorb. I've been giving him the pea treatment but I'm wondering if constipation is even the problem. Could it be that he's ingesting the air bubbles from the filter tube and that's making him bloat? Is that possible??? I have 2 other biorbs with bettas in them, and they have absolutely no problems whatsoever. Can anyone offer any explanation and shed some light on this please?

Thanks much!


*Mitch*

he could be eating the bubbles, you could try to lower the air flow, or you could simply just get a larger bowl or tank to keep him in... biorbs are good tanks, but certainly not worth it when you can buy like three ten gallon tanks for the same amount or less...

your betta could also have an internal parasite or could have developed a parasite through a water change, or through the food...

hope some one can shed a bit more light!!!

\\\\\\\"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure\\\\\\\"

Can you describe what you mean by bloated?

If you look at him from above, is he so tubby that his scales poke out?

Is he definitely a boy?

Does the bloating make him float on his side or sink to the bottom?

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Hi Callatya

I do believe he's a male, he has the very long flowing fins and looks just like my other male bettas. He does not have any scales that poke out, and when he gets bloated he floats to the top and does have some difficulty in staying upright, which depends on just how bloated he gets. He also has great difficulty in getting down to the bottom of his tank. He usually tries and wedge himself under some of the silk plants.





*Mitch*

Okidoke. Well at least he's got the hang on staying submerged!

So it is just the belly area that looks bloated? maybe ike he's swallowed a whole pea? Does the rest of him look weedy or thin, or do his scales look a bit matte or rough?

Have you ever treated him for worms or with an antibiotic like metro/flagyl?

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Problems!!!!! I came home tonight and he is bloated to the extreme! I've transferred him to a small bowl right now in order to give him the pea and he is eating it with great gusto. He cannot keep himself upright at all. He's just floating on his side. I'm doing a complete water change to his 1 gallon and I'll transfer him in there in a little while. I want to see if the pea will help this time. At least I know that it's not a problem with the biorb.

To answer your questions Callatya, he has no outward appearance of being sick. He looks really good except for the bloat and it starts from underneath his gills right up to his anal fin and it looks like he ate a whole pea. I have never treated him for anything except for fin rot. I used Furan2 with some melafix. I should also add that I've had now for almost a year.

Could it be chronic constipation? Is there anything that can be done for him except for the pea treatment which, at this point, looks like it will be a weekly process.


*Mitch*

Sorry to hear about your sick betta

One thing I can say with it is don't use the Melafix it can kill a betta, use Pimafix.

If Calla recommends Metro or such if you don't have here's a good Canadian Source
http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/scstore/Tropical-Fish-Medications.asp?L+scstore+qczt7716ffb805b8+1204266189

Hope that is of some help and sounds like your fish wants to hang in there.

The Amazon Nut...

I honestly don't know what the issue with Melafix was or is, as I've never had a problem with it. I know that others have, but half the time it seems that it was overdosed, too little too late or used when there was a respiratory issue. It is very difficult to dose at that strength in the type of aquaria that bettas generally live in. Bettafix and Melafix are now made of the same botanical extract, as opposed to the way it used to be, so perhaps if the problem was with the specific plant involved the problem is now far less than it used to be. Still, careful careful with the dosing I fully agree that Pimafix is easier on them.

Anyway, the reason I asked was that something like metro would have taken care of internal parasites at the same time and would have made them less likely to be a problem.

IMO, that is the most likely cause of the intermittent floating issues and visible bloating. As the parasites breed, they grow in size and numbers and push around in the gut and lean on things that send balance and buoyancy out of whack. This would give the swallowed-a-pea look and explain why the fish is spending way too much time on his side. It is pretty much the same signs as constipation except that it isn't directly related to food.

I'd look for a medication containing praziquantel, levimasole, or both. It will knock him about a bit as all wormers are essentially poisons, so treat him carefully for a few days afterwards. If you can, switch his diet to something bland and fibrous like daphnia for a while to help keep that gut moving and clear out any dead bodies

Fingers crossed that he comes right and can go back in his orb soon (BIG gravel vac of that before he goes back in, to clear out any eggs etc that might still be laying about - I'm not sure on species or life cycles so not sure what time frames are for that)

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thanks so much for all your help. I checked on him this morning and the pea treatment didn't work this time. He's still just as bloated. I do however just happen to have PraziPro on hand which contains the praziquantel that you mentioned Callatya. I sure hope this does the trick. I'll keep you posted.


*Mitch*

Good luck

And on the Melafix/Pimafix/Bettafix here's some further info I picked up off the net
http://www.fishforums.net/content/Bettas/57172/MelaFix-vs-BettaFix/

This one more concentrated info.
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=17002&start=0

The Amazon Nut...

For lemivsole, a lot of discus keepers recommended Sykes Big-L Wormer for Poultry & Pigs to me & I've used it with success. You can get it here http://www.2easy.com.au/shop/articles.php?search=big+l and here http://www.sykes.net.au/sykes/bigwormpoultrypigs.htm I know 2easy site ships internationally, but you're bound to find it somewhere local.

If you end up using lemivsole, whatever brand you get, it's important it doesn't contain any glucose. Some wormers have sugar or glucose mixed in with them (makes it taste better). Sugar will cause a bacterial bloom in your tank & could be fatal to fish. Sykes Big-L Wormer for Poultry & Pigs is water soluble & contains no glucose.

Here's an article giving extra info on Levamisole & it's use in the aquarium hobby.
http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1

Prazi & Levamisole target different types of worms (prazi treats tapeworm & fluke while Levamisole treats nematodal parasites, camallanus and capillaria.

This is the medication regime I was advised to follow for worming my discus:-

week 1: Big L (1ml per 7Lts of tank water) - contact time is suggested as 24hrs, so water change anything after that would be ok
week 2: Prazi (as per bottle dosage instructions) - Water change after 48hr (clean filter as well to remove dead worms)
week 3: Prazi " " " " "
week 4: Big L (1ml per 7Lts of tank water)

The repeat treatments are to make sure you don't get a re infestation & that you kill all the worms, in their different life stages.

Water change after lemivsole should be fine anytime after 24hrs - I left mine 48hrs. With Prazi, you should do a water change 48 hours after dosing, cleaning out the filter to get rid of any dead worms.

Oh, & Lights off during treatment. Levamisole is light sensitive.

I guess this seems a little full on for worm treatment for a little Betta, especially if the pea is working. Just thought the info might be useful to know anyway.

Hope your Betta makes a full recovery.

Cheers
TW

I got Levamisole from there: http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e078b2-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Super fast and reliable shipment but be prepared to do a lot of aliquoting as the concentration of the med in water is very low. Like Robyn, I use it mainly for discus but investation is very common in fish from Asian hatcheries.

be prepared to do a lot of aliquoting

Hmmm, Homework Task: look up aliquoting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliquot

"In mathematics, an aliquot part (or simply aliquot) of an integer is any of its integer proper divisors. For instance, 2 is an aliquot of 12. The sum of all the aliquots of an integer n is the value s(n) = s(n) - n , where s(n) is the sum of divisors function. In chemistry, an aliquot is usually a portion of a total amount of a solution.

The word is derived from the Latin aliquoties, "several times". In pharmaceutics, aliquot refers to a method of measuring ingredients below the sensitivity of a scale. For example, if a scale is inaccurate for samples under 120 mg, but the prescription calls for only 40 mg of drug, an aliquot must be done. This involves adding active ingredient and a proportional amount of diluent to make a "stock" supply. In this case, 120 mg active drug must be weighed and mixed with diluent. Once this stock supply is made, at least 120 mg of this mixture will be taken out and used (as long as this portion contains exactly 40 mg of active drug).

For a poor simpleton like me, I'll stick with Sykes Big L. 1ml for every 7Ltrs. I have a headache just thinking about aliquoting

Cheers
TW

"aliquoting" = what my brain cells were doing when I just did 2 years worth of taxes....

The Amazon Nut...

My most sincere apologies to Robyn and DaMossMan for using labslang.

ROBYN!!! No question that I would prefer Big L - but I could not find it here in the US. In my dispair I contacted the veterinarian of our animal facility who gave me quizzical looks (wondering what the heck I would need it for) and a generous offer for a prescription for Levamisole until I told him that it is a) not a prescription med and I would like to get it b) water soluble and c) already dissolved. He was clueless and I spared myself the explanation about the nature of the patients. The Rocky Mountains rolled of my chest when I finally found a link on a killi fish site to valleyvet.

I used the lab balance to aliquot the portions (now I have 20 of them neatly packaged in reaction tubes in a drawer).

BTW - I enjoyed your response, pretty funny!

You have a bird for an avatar??! I was just about to comment that this forum is called 'fishprofiles' until I realized that my avatar depicts one of my feline companions


Oops, the explanation for the betta in need; you aliquot = weigh out the amount of powder used for treatment of the tank of choice (or better the amount used to treat the 10x amount of water that is in the tank. Now you dissolve the powder in 10 mL of water but you add only 1mL to of the solution the tank = required concentration to treat the tank! Easier to weigh out.)

If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask

Ohhh, new word! So you essentially cut it with a filler of some sort to make dosing small quantities of the active easier, yes?

My favourite for general fish worming is Avitrol Plus, but again it is off-label and I believe only available in Australia. If you can get it though, that is a nice one to have handy as it seems to be very gentle on the fish.
http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/prodSubList.cfm?group_no=2103

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Aliwhatsing? Owwww my brain hurts!

mts.gif" border="0"> I vote do you?
My Tanks at Photobucket

My most sincere apologies to Robyn and DaMossMan for using labslang.

Don't believe her !!

Aliwhatsing? Owwww my brain hurts!

Mine did too, especially when I used it in a sentence having no idea what it meant

The Amazon Nut...

BTW - I enjoyed your response, pretty funny

Well, you know I was only playing around

No question that I would prefer Big L - but I could not find it here in the US.

Fairly certain this site ships to US. Think I read testimonial of a US purchaser. The stuff is liquid, so easy to dose the tank with it. Plus it contains no glucose. It's what the guys on discusforums recommend http://www.2easy.com.au/shop/articles.php?search=big+l

You have a bird for an avatar??!

Thought it was time for Butch (my Olive Rainbow Lorikeet) to have his chance to shine. He looks so cute (to me) being all wet & fluffed up from his bath.

Callatya, the Avitrol looks interesting, having both prazzi & levamisole, which would be handy. I was told to be careful of bird wormers though, as they were the most likely to contain glucose. Does Avitrol list glucose & is it easy to work out the dosages for a tank, as opposed to drops in birds drinking water. I could always get it for Butch, even if not my fish

Cheers
TW

Butch is awefully cute - I searched the web immediately for olive rainbow lorikeet. Almost as cute as 'Schulz', my avatar

Robyn, thanks for the link to readily usable Levamisole, as it stands, I have material for years to come in the drawer ... simply stopped at 'aliqot' 20 because I got tired of it. BUT ... looks like I will subject my little brilliant blue Stendker discus to a short course of deworming. He picked something up from one of his fellow tank mates. I AM SICK OF THIS!!!!

Sorry for ruining this post. How is the poor betta doing???

DaMossman ... tzzzzzz

Calllatya, it is actually not a filler that I am suggesting - just making up the 10fold amount as it will be VERY difficult to weigh out the amount for such a small tank as the biorb (I am treating in a 5.5G and know what I am talking about). Fortunately, Levamisole is not very toxic and overdosing will not do much harm as long as it is not excessive.
Aliquoting is basically just a fancy word for defined smaller quantities of a substance (typically a perishable one that can not be subjected to repeated cycles of freeze/thaw for example). You weigh out the quantity you need for one set of experiments/treatment and store it until further use. This way, the stock will not be touched. The definitions provided by dictionary.com and wikipedia are way more complicated rhan it is. I hope this helps