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Hi folks

I've dosed him with the PraziPro on Thursday morning, 3 drops in his 1 gallon,( dosage is 1 tsp per 20 gallons) and no change until early Saturday morning. Don't know if it was the med or the pea that actually took effect. I had some Jungle Anti-Parasite food on hand and fed him that too. He didn't like it too much but that's all he's getting until whatever he has is cleared up.

By late Sunday afternoon, he started getting that bloated look again but was swimming along fine and no difficulty in remaining submerged or diving.

I can't comprehend how he could have gotten worms though. He is fed the same thing as all my other bettas and it's the same tap water for all my fish. I was under the impression that parasites came from other infected fish or live foods, of which neither is the case here.


*Mitch*

Mitchee, you & your poor betta are having a tough time. Certainly seems hard to know how a previously well betta, kept all by himself & not fed live food, could get worms I hope your treatment gives you a permanent solution soon (I mean a good one).

I had some Jungle Anti-Parasite food on hand and fed him that too.

You're lucky to have those foods available, such as containing metro. Metro is prescription only in Aus, so there's no metro dosed food available - though pls someone tell me I'm wrong & where to get it.

Like catdancer, I'm sorry to have jumbled up your thread.
Callatya, I hope you pop back to this thread. Rather than mess up this thread further, I've started my own with a question on Avitrol Plus. http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/37113.1.htm?0.6698711#

Almost as cute as 'Schulz', my avatar

Yes, Schulz is very cute as well - I've always silently admired him. Probably best that he & Butch never meet. Since you were interested enough to google him, I'll get a "dry" picture of Butch to you soon.




Cheers
TW

Sorry I'm not more help Mitchee, diseases/meds my weak area good thing Calla / Robyn / Catdancer are here

Is your betta still improving ?

If it's internal parasite, dosing the prazi and med food for the duration should nail it. This may also be a good fish to start introducing garlic into the diet to help repel internal problems and boost immunity.

An sa cichlid breeder lost his f/m dorsigera to worms and had introduced no new fish to the tank. Also someone else had worms (or other unk parasite) keep returning over a 3 month period and dosed everything under the sun.

Examining the poop and maybe the fish itself for protruding worms with a magnifying glass (I bought one at a dollar store) for worms or eggs may help rule out other problems ? The possible causes for bloat are many.

Catdancer - sorry to hear your discus is sick too



The Amazon Nut...

Hey Herb

Thanks for asking on my betta's condition. I treated him for 4 days on the PraziPro and anti-parasite food and I stopped. I'm not positive that it is worms for the reasons that I stated previously. I'm apprehensive in treating for something that may or may not be there.

He appeared to get bloated a couple of days back, but he had no difficulty swimming or staying submerged. I looked really closely at him and I was not able to detect any signs of worms. I'm still giving him the pea treatment and he ate half of one on Monday. He looks great now! Which brings me to ask, if it's worms, why would the pea treatment work, albeit if only for a short duration?

It's only been 5 days since his last episode and he usually gets really bloated at the 1.5 week mark. If he can remain "normal" for at least 3 weeks, then I'll know that most likely the 4 day med treatment worked, if he returns to his bloated look with the resulting swimming difficulty, then I'll try the PraziPro again but for the 7 day stint.




*Mitch*

Hello again

"I'm not positive that it is worms...I'm apprehensive in treating for something that may or may not be there."

Said perfectly. I hate throwing chems in to treat an unknown. Close observation can rule out alot.

"I'm still giving him the pea treatment and he ate half of one on Monday. He looks great now!" - excellent

"Which brings me to ask, if it's worms, why would the pea treatment work, albeit if only for a short duration?"

Good question.
The pea treatment is for constipation as far as I know.
If someone suggested for worms, maybe because fibre helps to clean out the intestinal tract. It also increases poop which may help dislodge and expel the worms out of the tract. Worms need meds, pea would be something that assists.

You're on the right track Mitch, keep a hawks eye on it and keep us posted. Have a good night

ps - plant list is updated, coming soon.


The Amazon Nut...

De-worming is not an instant process. The few days between starting treatment and seeing a noticeable change is perfectly normal. The drug does kill the worms fairly quickly, but it may not kill all of them at once, and the dead worms still need to be expelled from the gut.

Almost always, what you are aiming for with a wormer is to reduce the internal parasite burden, not completely rid the fish of parasites. You might, and that'd be great, but the goal is to reduce numbers to something the fish can handle. 4 days should have put a big dent in it so fingers crossed.

Although I'm not one for advocating using medication willy nilly, I find worming very important. These fish are bred and raised outdoors in all sorts of dodgy intensive conditions being fed whatever and pooped on by goodness knows what and then shunted along to several different holding tanks before it even reaches the LFS. It is very uncommon for fishkeepers to practice even one worming treatment while the fish is in quarantine in order to reduce that parasite level so it doesn't lead to a wormy tank. We happily worm dogs, cats, horses and birds on a regular basis but for fish, the idea of even once off treatments seems to be unacceptable.

That is just my little huff and puff though, so pay no attention .
When you think about it, you are the one on the front line here and you are the one that knows the fish and the way that this has progressed. If you don't feel that you are doing the right thing for him, stop You have a better chance of doing the right thing given that you have far more info on the specific situation than anyone else.

Re: the Avitrol, yes it does have a sugar base. At least I think it does, the labelling doesn't say and the drugs in it shouldn't make the liquid that viscous. I'll email the lab to confirm. I wouldn't recommend it for big tanks where there is light filtration or for routine worming, however for bowls, tanks with medium/heavy filtration, or those times when you need both of those drugs without dodgy dealing or finding a vet that is up to speed with fish (or that'll even take you seriously if you show up with a sad looking schooler). The worst that you get is a bit of a biofilm type layer, and since usually there is a day-after water change, that gets taken care of. It isn't ideal, but of the available options I find it much easier on the tanks, water and fish than the prazi tablets.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

That is just my little huff and puff though, so pay no attention

Pay no attention ? I want to take notes (if that's ok?)


The Amazon Nut...

I find worming very important.......We happily worm dogs, cats, horses and birds on a regular basis but for fish, the idea of even once off treatments seems to be unacceptable.

Callatya, I agree. With some breeds, it's even more important than with others. All my apistos are wormed when I first get them & discus are wormed at least twice a year.

Thanks for extra Avitrol info. I have dosed the tank with prazi & soaked a little food in Avitrol. Fingers crossed it does the trick. Good luck Mitchee with your betta. Let us know how things go.

EDIT: Mitchee, for the prazi to be effective, there has to be a repeat treatment one week later. Also, prazi only kills certain type of worms, that's why Callatya, catdancer & I have all mentioned levimasole as well, to get the types not effected by the prazi.


Cheers
TW

Question for Robyn and Calla if I may ?

How/where can someone learn what type of internal parasite/worm they're dealing with, and which med (for example metro, levamisole or prazi to hit em with for best effect ? How to differentiate between those or bacterial disease etc ? Metro did nothing for my apistos, I had nothing else on hand and by that time it was too late. I want to stock prazi and L just so I'm prepared. Any certain books or other resources recommended ? Any tips appreciated. Thanks

I'm sure Mitch would be interested in this also
(If not, I apologize )

The Amazon Nut...

Hi DaMossMan

Sorry for your apisto loss. Not sure if I can mention other forums here, but a lot of my info comes from www.discusforums.com - some from sticky's in the illness/medication topic forum & some from threads people have posted asking questions. There's lots of worming advice there, as discus & apistos are e to worms. Read the Sticky's and also do a search for all the key words (prazi, worms, metro and lemivsole - check spelling lol). I hope the link works & you can go there & read up on it. I regularly worm my discus against both types of worms, so I use the lemivsole / prazzi routine (they're easy to get in Aus). Metro is prescription only in Aus, so it's hard to get. You have to beg & plead with a vet, who gives you strange looks & may or may not even give you a prescription. I have used Metro, but only sparingly, as it's so hard to convince a vet to write a presciption for it.

There is also a topic forum dedicated to dwarf cichlids on this same site, to perfect for apisto lovers as well.

This fishprofile site & the other I mention are full helpful people, who are keen to help.

Hope this helps somewhat. I'm far from an expert, but whatever I've learnt on worming, I got from discusforums. I have 2 apisto girls with worms ATM (can see them hanging out from anus), so I'm hoping my treatment works. I'd like to get some straight into her gut, as well as by dosing the tank. Easy with L, as it's liquid, harder with prazi, as it's a tablet. That's why I was so interested in Callatya's info about the bird wormer (it's liquid & has both L & P). Problem is you have to guess the dosage rate between for food, but it's better than nothing. So my girls have had a 2 day bath in L (& eaten food soaked in L), currently having their 1st 2 day bath in prazi (eaten a little food soaked in bird wormer - but they didn't like it so much). Next week will be another 2 day prazi bath, followed by a final 2 day L bath. Fingers crossed for them.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

Thanks very much for the tips. Yes SA cichlids are my fave. It's ok to mention other forums here. I'm on many sites but not active in most of them these days. This is where I started, the safe happy home I return to. I'll pop over to discus and see what I can learn soon, and make some notes (add this to the growing to do list which I procrastinate on) Calla knows alot as do you. Best of luck with your discus, I know it will get better

The Amazon Nut...

Hey, DaMossMan, some forums aren't so friendly, as this one is. One I won't identify, that I visit fairly infrequently, won't let you mention any LFS that is not a sponsor, or refer to any rival forums, or provide any links to forums or on-line stores that aren't sponsors. Your posts are deleted if you do so & you're sent a pm warning. IMO, they seem to have forgotten the purpose of a forum, which should be a place where fishkeepers can share knowledge & resources. Anyway, that's my rant for today I'll get off my soap box now.

My discus aren't sick, but I am worming them now, as I have some new guys, so it's just a precaution. My SA cichlids are the sick ones & I have my fingers crossed for them. Discus & SA cichlids are my favourite's. The dwarfs are such pretty & interest little guys.

Cheers
TW

I hear ya on the other sites, don't get ME started too lol *sits on the vacated soap box and lights a smoke*

Which SA cichlids are sick ? I hope they get well soon

Angelfish, Laetacaras, gb rams, discus, and aggies are my faves. Have endlers now too, expecting 6-8 L dorsigera juvies soon Lots of tank junk to do, maybe I'll get a bit done tonight if lucky.



The Amazon Nut...

As well as discus & SA cichlids, African riverine dwarves are also my favs, eg Pelvicachromis taeniatus (pt) group. They're close cousins to pelvicachromis pulcher (krib)

Which SA cichlids are sick ? I hope they get well soon

Had a couple prev. healthy female aggies for around 24mths. Just after Christmas I bought a new male aggi & for the other side of the divided tank, a group of pt.nigerian red. New fish all in QT for a month - but my supplier of L was out of stock & couldn't get it to me before I left on hols. Before leaving, I made the wrong decision & put the un-wormed new fish in their permanent homes. New fish still show no sign of worms, but 2 aggie girls have worms hanging out & swollen anus now. Can only assume new fish are carriers of worms, but not susceptible to them. Or could it be the live brine shrimp I fed, something I seldom do. Otherwise, like Mitchee, I'm at a loss at understanding how the aggie girls got the worms. I'm treating their whole tank at the moment.

Apistos, I think, can be harder to keep alive than discus IMO. I found this tounge in cheek little apisto saying once:-

I may be more cynical than most but certain generalities seem to apply to Apistogramma:

One partner of a pair always dies if you have spawned them once and not salvaged any fry.
One partner of a pair often kills the other, just because no replacements are available.
Something they eat disagrees with them and some die.
If you really like a certain species and lavish it with the best of everything, it will die.
These fish are perverse; sometimes those you ignore the most live the longest.

Often seems true to me.

Mitchee, is your little guy doing better now?

Cheers
TW

I think Mitchee is hiding

I like krib types too, had giant purple kribs before. I hate dropsy.

Sorry to hear about your aggies, & that apisto paragraph makes total sense to me. Been thru 1 trio then a pair of aggies myself. And they're supposed to be the beginner apistos.. Too many pple around here with cockatoos though. Gb rams finicky too sometimes. My keyholes seem very hardy and active. I'll have to straighten out the tanks, clean them up a bit and get a shot. Don't expect miracles it's nowhere near as nice as yours ! I have to concentrate to get it done, having a hard time with that lately. Some new types of moss to tie to driftwood bits too if they're still living, left them in their baggies since mid feb. * slaps self * Replant some plants and get substrate into the 10 sometime this weekend I hope.

I'd love to keep gb rams and L dorsigera in the same tank, BUT I was told the males would fight as they have the same body shape roughly

The new fish maybe have a tolerance for the worms but carried them and their mates weren't as resistant ?
Crossing my fingers for both your fish.


The Amazon Nut...

Too many ppl here with cockatoos

Guilty lol

Anyway, after your replant, you must start a new thread & post a pic. I look forward to poping in & seeing your thread soon. Good luck with it all.

Mitchee, sorry, we have taken over your thread. Mostly tried to keep on topic & talking about deworming sick fish, but I know that you're not even sure your betta has worms. Pls let us know how he does, when you have time. After talking about him for a little while now, it would be nice to see a pic of him too.

Cheers
TW

HI guys!

Sorry, for not getting back to you sooner! So far my betta is looking great! Absolutely no bloat! However, I've been down this road before where he was fine for almost 2 weeks and then the bloat reared it's ugly head. I'm cautiously optimistic here. I'm going to do another PraziPro treatment as per TW, just to be on the safe side. It looks like the med did the trick!

Can't thank you all enough for all your help! You're all terrific! I'll keep you posted on his hopefully continued progress. I'll send pics soon!


*Mitch*

Glad to hear things are going well with your Betta

The Amazon Nut...

Fingers crossed Mitchee, that's good news so far.

Cheers
TW

Probably just find that the dewormers in the jungle labs stuff had the usual laxative effect, perhaps make fibre more of a feature in his diet in future and presoak foods. Some bettas can be a bit genetically predisposed to constipation and gaseous bloating issues, and once youve had it happen the once it pays to make sure lots of dietary fibre is included from that point on.

Mitchee, this may not apply in your Betta's case, but thought I'd share some additional advice I got over the past few days from discusforums. One of the members helping me is a vet & fish keeper, the other a very experienced fish keeper.

did you try an Epsom salt bath? a good bath may help them pass some worms (especially after a treatment) and bring down the population of the parasites. 2 tablespoons in 10L for 15min as long as the fish can take it would probably do the trick.

a bucket or ice cream container will do for the bath, after 15 min drop them back in the tank.

it worked really well when ever my Betta's were bloated and a few times I've seen discus pass worms during a treatment, i assume it will work just as well for your dwarves. it will probably work better after a treatment as the worms are
1.dead or
2. not happy and more easily passed.

but give it ago, you could even go a stronger dose of 1tbs/4L, just watch the fish and if they show distress, drop them back into the main tank.

appropriate levels of magnesium ions will just encourage a laxative effect(is that catharsis?) so should be fine

healthy fish have a good ability to maintain osmotic balance and so will come through it easier than ill fish

If you want to read the whole thread, here's a link http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15882&highlight=

If you decide to try th Epsom Salt bath, keep in mind the measurments are Aussie metric measurements, so one 1tbs = 4tspn. 1tbs = 20ml and 1tsp = 5ml.

Hope you don't need the further advice though

Cheers
TW

Thanks for the additional info Longhairedgit and TW. Appreciate it. I just changed his water and gave him the extra PraziPro treatment. So far, so good. He's still looking quite normal and no signs of bloat yet. If things keep progressing, he may make it back into his biorb before we know it!!!


*Mitch*

Hey Mitchee, the bit about the epsom salt bath - it's a bit of a laxative & helps the fish pass out the worms (if they're there). Apparently, best results if you do this just after a worm treatment - so perfect for straight after your prazi treatment has had a day or so to do it's work.

Cheers
TW

Well, after being in a 1g bowl for almost a month, my betta was transferred back into his 4g biorb and he's been there now for almost 3 weeks with no signs of bloat!!! He's going through a little bit a fin rot right now but other than that everything is fine. Very happy that he pulled through this


*Mitch*

Well done Mitch

Cheers
TW

I spoke too soon, yet again. He's dying. I've transferred him back to his 1g to make it easier for him to get to the top. For a couple of days now, I noticed that he had difficulty in remaining in a horizontal position while surfacing and he would eventually just sink to the bottom. His mouth seems to be remaining open too. Perhaps the initial symptoms described in this post were the onset of Swim Bladder Disease??? I don't understand, he was doing so well! Very upset now after all efforts of trying to help him have, in the end, been to no avail. I'll wait a couple of days and see how he does. Really don't have the heart to euthanize him yet.


*Mitch*

It pains me to report that I had to put him down this morning. He had such difficulty in reaching the surface and he would remain mostly in a vertical position. I could not bear to see him suffer anymore. Sad day.


*Mitch*

Oh, Mitchee, that's so sad. You tried your best for your little friend, but sometimes there is nothing we can do. At least he is not hurting now

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear of your loss Mitchee

The Amazon Nut...