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Robyn,

Sorry about all the worries that these fish create for you. I cannot help much more than I already did try to, but I am no expert on this.

What's the news on the fish in the last 2 days?

I would still say it may be worth a shot to move the female to another tank, the male may not want to eat because he is totally stressed by her. If you move him then he will stay stressed as he has to adjust to a new environment yet again.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo

Thanks for checking in. They've been stressing me out - more worry than pleasure. Advice from apistogramma forums included the parasite suggestion (for which I gave one dose to the tank) but also a couple of US keepers of these fish said it's unlikely these particular fish will ever take dry foods & likely they'd only take live food or frozen cichlid dinner (they didn't touch the cichlid dinner). I tried live black worms & they ate them, but I didn't like how quickly 50% of worms escaped into substrate before fish even knew they were there. As live food only lasts 3 days & the drive to get it each way is 30mins from home (so an hour trip all up), I was thinking seriously of asking LFS to take these fish back & rang him today to talk about feeding issues. He tells me (now) that with him, they ate frozen hikari brand brine shrimp & bloodworm & that they were eating these well with him. He didn't feed them live food & said these were better, as they are enriched. He said they will not eat the processed dry foods & that I need to feed them these frozen foods & walk away from the tank (I knew that - they are very shy of me). He knew I was inexperienced with Apisto, so I really feel he should have told me about this particular food requirement when he sold them to me.

Anyway, for the first time, I feel a bit more positive. They ate the frozen bloodworm well.

The Apisto forum advice was to move the female away from him to the community tank for around 3 weeks or so & to move some of the hiding spaces around while she's gone. He then will get to feel comfortable in the tank, feel he is the king of the tank (hopefully) & then to transfer her back to see how things go.

An apisto expert who has kept these fish suggested I add 2 pencil fish when I return her, as they come from the same bio type, do not need to school, are not that fast or predatory & their presence may encourage the female to allow the male to participate in the protection of eggs. I've never seen pencil fish, but I'll ask LFS about them. I could add them now, but I want to get the apistos used to me feeding them. Currently male runs & hides when I add food to tank & with competition (pencil fish) food may be all gone before he comes back out to find it. So if he gets the idea I mean food, before I add the pencil fish, that would be better. My other apsitos know I mean food & are always expectant when I walk to their tank, so hopefully these guys will get the idea (now I know what they've been used to eating). I don't think they were ever sick now, just didn't like the food I offered.

I let the male out of the net, but left female in the net. I don't really like her in the net, but I'm not confident that the greedy guts in the community tank would leave her enough to eat. I've tried that trick you say of feeding at 2 different corners when I had a bolivian ram in there (I don't have him anymore) but I found even doing that, the quick feeders always spotted what I was doing & raced over to eat. All it would take would be for one to spot it, and over they'd all race. Maybe because my tank is so much shorter than yours. I don't think she'd stand a chance of getting enough food with all that competition.

The other option is to put her in QT, which is also currently housing my other apistos, but I don't know how the 2 females would go together. I assume there'd be no interbreeding, but I'm not sure, so that stopped me too. My 2 male apistos are very different looking, but the 2 females (while one is most def. prettier than the other) they're similar, so I wonder if the male could make a mistake.

So, my male is getting his time out on his own in the tank, with the female above him in a breeding net.

I know no-one can really help me further with this, other than you've already done. Feel guilty she is in the breeder. I wish they made these breeding nets in bigger sizes, but at least she is eating. She ate live black worm in there yesterday and the frozen blood worm today, so that is something.

Lights are off in the tank at the moment, so no pictures. But one of my anubias that I attached to driftwood fence looks like it's dying & I don't know why that is. Before I bought the driftwood, I had it's roots sitting in the substrate & it was doing just fine, but my plan had always been to attach it to some sort of hardscape, but it doesn't seem happy with the change.

The hygro I added in there seems to be going well, but my crypts are melting. I don't know why, but crypts usually melt on me.

Cheers
TW

As I said, I am out of suggestions on the Apistos, but please continue to keep us posted so we can learn from the process of trial and error.

Uh - I do have one more with regards to feeding: It may only work in a larger tank with lots of fish though. I feed on one corner, and when I approach the tank all Pealrs, Rainbows, and the Apistos are waiting for me. When I only add a little food at a time then the Apistos have no chance to get some with the super fast Rainbows around. So, I add a larger amount at once, about a third of he total food load. This way some of the food can be grabbed by the Apistos. I wait until all food in the corner either floated away or has been eaten, then I repeat until all is done.

On to the plants:

I don't know why the Anubias is dying, is the root (rhizome) free in the water? How is it dying?

Crypts melt so easily, I believe they melt if you just yell at them. Seriously, if you move a crypt even within the same tank it may melt. But after a while (months) they may come back to life, they just don't like moving.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

They both ate the frozen daphnia today. They fascinate me with their feeding habits, now that I'm not so stressed about them. They look at food & seem to think about it, until it is almost too late, before they decide to lunge for it. I'm amazed to think these fish could ever catch enough to eat in the wild - seems most things would have ample time for a getaway, while they think about whether or not to pounce.

Re: the anubia - lights are out again, but yes, root (rhizome) is free in the water. It's attached to my driftwood fence with some fishing line. The leaves are getting holes, ragged edges & are falling off. I have 3 other anubias, and they are all doing well. Some of them came from the one plant, which I divided up.

The crypt has been moved a couple of times, when I was trying to rearrange the tank to create the driftwood fence & hiding spaces for my wimpy male. So it must be the movement that it objected to. I will leave it alone & see if it comes back.

BTW, I remember some time ago in your thread we talked about clay pots for cichlids & if they were needed or not. Indeed, I think in the end they were banned from your tank. I have to say, that unless you have a wimpy male that needs multiple "extra" hiding places, I say not needed at all. I have no fry (eggs either disappeared or eaten by mum) but both my Apisto laid eggs in a natural cave formed under pieces of driftwood. So, clay pots not required (not surprising, as they wouldn't be in nature, but I wonder why so many think they are, including LFS who sold these to me). I have some, but only gave in due to the aggression problem I was seeing but don't tell anyone. I've made sure you can't see them & they are only for extra hiding spots for wimpy male. Because they are small, they take up less room between the plants than driftwood would, so in the end I get more plants by having 3 of them hidden in the back.

Thanks for the feeding suggestion.

Cheers
TW

Well another day has passed & I'm still happy to say the food issue seems to have been solved. I've now tried frozen brine, daphnia (spelling?) & blood worm & they are all eaten (with the usual delay while the fish firstly "looks" & then "thinks" & then finally "pounces".

I have noticed some changes in the males personality while he swims in there without the female. He chased some otos today, so I was not too pleased about that. If it gets too bad, then I can always move them. So far, the otos don't seem too phased. They just move on (ever so slightly) & settle again.

Here is a picture of the dying anubia. You can't see the root (rhizome), as I placed it on the back of the wood, purposely so you can't see it.

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Cheers
TW

And here is a shot of a new plant. It's some type of sword (I don't know which, but I like it's brightness). This tank has a darker look & feel than my other tanks and I think this brightens up the front. I hope it does not grow too big in this non C02 tank.



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Cheers
TW

Here is a full shot, showing the new plant's position in the tank. The dying anubia is behind it. The female is in the net you can see and the male is in the bottom left corner of the shot.

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Cheers
TW

Lastly, here is the best shot of my male I could get tonight. I figure, if I keep on trying, I might one day get a half way decent shot. He's not really purple, but the irridescent blue is fairly accurate.

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Cheers
TW

I fibbed, this is the last one.

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Cheers
TW

Robyn,

About the Anubias: Is the rhizome disintigrating as well? If so then throw it out, it will not recover. Other options could be that you left it outside of the tank for too long while you were dividing it, or at some other point. Or, you damaged it when you trimmed the rhizome, did you use a blade? Is there any new stem growing or has that stopped as well?

I am not an expert on Swords (maybe uncle Bensaf can help) but this style of a sword (unlike chain swords) does usually grow taller and would require to be replanted further back in a while. It looks to me a little like uruguaensis (spelling). I would assume that it should reach somewhere between 10" and 16" in height.

Your Apistos sure don't give you an easy time . I would not be too worried about the male and the Otos, they should be protected enought to withstand a little offensive of the Male. Usually, other fish get bored with bugging Otos as they are so irresponsive.

But I guess his chasing the Otos means that he is establishing a territory, which would be a good thing.

And - Get a better camera . I know you can afford it, given that you shop at ADA

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo,

Re: the anubia. Lights off in the tank now. At next water change, I'll take a look at the rear side of the wood to see if the rhizome is disintegrating. Maybe it was out of the tank itself for a while, but I did the re-scape in here in co-incidence with a water change. During most of that time, the anubia was floating around in the water that I took out of the tank. After I attached it to the wood, I put it straight back in the tank itself. Unfortunately, I didn't use a blade. I used scissors. Was that a mistake?

I'm not so happy to hear the sword grows 10 - 15 inches. It looks so nice just now, but it will have to go well before it ever gets that tall. I'll leave it for now, until it gets too big. It sounds like chain sword would have been a better choice. Stays smaller, right?

Your Apistos sure don't give you an easy time

But I think I am winning now. Food is solved & I'm much less stressed. That may change if the rejoining of male & female doesn't go well, but I'm feeling more positive. While I don't like the oto being chased, I see it as a positive sign of the male beginning to feel "king of the tank" & that was the whole plan & purpose of removing the female.

Your right about otos being unresponsive. This male apisto is more successful in getting the oto move than either his wife was or the apisto's in the other tank but even though they do actually swim away from him, they only move a little & often swim right back to where the apisto moved them on. For such little fish, they just don't seem to care, so I hope the male does get bored of it soon.

I know you can afford it, given that you shop at ADA

Remember, here in AUS, the Eco substrate I want for the 4ft tank will cost me MORE than the ADA soil cost. Seriously though, I would love a better camera, but it is so far down the list of priorities .....school fees, light for 4ft tank, eco substrate for 4ft tank, plants & fish for 4ft tank (and the list goes on). Camera is on the list somewhere ..........

Cheers
TW

Female apisto released back into the tank tonight & 4 pencil fish added as dithers. So far so good, in fact, the female turned such a bright yellowish golden colour, instead of her more usual brown & the male is obviously trying to impress her - so maybe tonight they will spawn again. Is that a good thing? I don't know - that was the start of the problems last time, so time will tell.

Here is a shot of the tank, without the breeding net. Whilst the new sword stays small, I really like how it looks. I also like the hygro (think that's what it is) at the back. It's a change from the wisteria.

Spot 2 of the new pencil fish. I really like them too.


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Cheers
TW

Here is a pic of the female, all coloured up. Watching them tonight, often when the male swam up to her, she would almost turn on her side. It was like she was showing him her belly.

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Cheers
TW

Sorry, another pic of the happy couple (fingers crossed).

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Cheers
TW

last one for this week




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Cheers
TW

Looked up on tropica Echinodorus Uruguayensis that LF suggested my sword might be. Mine doesn't look quite like the picture, but maybe that's because mine is smaller & still more clumpy looking.

Now that the breeding net is gone, this is probably the favourite of my planted tanks at the moment. For some reason, I like it's look better, even though it is a low tech, non C02 tank. It might be the hygro.

Fishwise, things still seem to be going well, with no aggression. They both recognise that I am their feeder & come to me at feeding time. Ahhh, now this tank can start to be a pleasure again, instead of a worry.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Great to hear that things seem to be going better (if not even good) by now.

I am not sure about the Urug., I think it looks like one that I once had. It was a small plant similar to this one, but it didn't make it. I didn't have enough space to give it sufficient light, it always ended up being shaded.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now that I know the sword is called E.Parviflorus and is likely to not get much bigger, I planted a 2nd one.



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Cheers
TW

In such a short space of time, how things can change. My male is now definitely the king & lets the pencil fish know this, but the chasing of pencil fish seems mainly for show. He has given up trying to bully the otos, as they don't seem to care - but he is giving his female a hard time. She hides & I don't see her for days at a time. She must get particularly hungry by the 3rd day & comes comes out to feed. But she is very timid of the male & I can see by her poor tail, she has reason to run. It's funny too, how suddenly her whole colour can change. Today, she came out to feed & her colour was a really dirty brown. After a feed of frozen brine shrimp, during which time she was chased away a couple of times by the male - she later came out showing her pretty golden colours, turning on her side & showing him her belly. I think she is trying to seduce him Don't think he's in the mood though. She is still trying now. If I didn't know better, I'd think there were 2 female apistos, so different does she look when she's not in the mood.

The 2 new sword plants have grown a bit since I planted them. I might cut some of the very tallest leaves off at next water change. In fact, most things will be ready for a trim. For a non C02 tank, things are growing very quickly - but then, as I've used mostly fast growers, what else can I expect. This tank will always need to stay a little on the overgrown bushy side though, to give the female lots of hiding places. Spot the male, front & centre

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Cheers
TW

Yippee, my female is still such a lovely golden colour today & swimming near her a few wigglers. There don't seem to be that many, maybe 4 or 6.

I'll ask on the cichlid forum about feeding them.

I guess I won't be doing this weeks water change now - I'll let them grow a bit more first.

She seems to be still flirting with the male, leaving her young ones & showing herself to him. I thought at this point, she'd be more likely to stay & guard them. Hope she can keep the pencil fish away.

Cheers
TW

As with all my shots, the picture quality is poor. But look at the white blotches on the wood - those are my wrigglers (unfortunately, she only has 5) with mum hovering proudly nearby.


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Cheers
TW

Another view

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Cheers
TW

last one. Lucky for me, tonight she has picked a spot right in the front of the tank to marshall her brood, so even if my pictures can't pick up the detail, I've been able to watch closely tonight.

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Cheers
TW

Congrats grandma! These are Cacs, correct?

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Back in the saddle!

Hey NowherMan6, grandma is very excited.

No, these are Apistogramma Bitaeniata Tefe. If you're interested, you can scroll back further in the past page to see pictures of the parents.

She only has 5 fry & I don't know how many she started off with. She & her mate are still adolescents, so maybe that's why she has so few. Her 1st batch of eggs must have been infertile (she ate them after a week) so this is her 2nd try. I've only had these fish since 24 June, so I'm excited to have fry so soon. Really enjoying watching them. Fingers crossed some make it.

My cacs are in another tank. They have had at least one batch of eggs (that I've seen) but no wrigglers as yet.

Thanks again.

Cheers
TW

Congrats on the wigglers ! Hope they do fine. The tank is looking good as well!

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Robyn,

So what happened here?

I am not checking into this log for a few days and when I come back (was busy at work) I see that the former sworn enemies have turned into parents? Unbelievable

Congrats, I guess the male finally figured out a way to keep the female's aggression at bay, just make her a mother and she will be too busy to fight

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Ingo

Yep, I guess those days I worried over her being dead (she would disappear amid the plants & not be seen for 3 days or so) she was probably guarding her eggs. Never actually saw them in the egg or wiggler stage, just as very tiny free swimming fry. The number has remained constant at 5, so I hope she can carry this through.

She is a strange personality. She is still wearing her breeding colours during all this. If her previous sworn enemy swims close, out she comes, does her submissive tilt to the side to show him her belly - then she dashes back to her brood. But, should he actually come too close to the brood, he is chased off with attempts to nip his tail. Poor guy must be very confused, with all these mixed messages. But all in all, the separation of the 2 worked & he is not the wimp anymore. He has done his fair share of chasing her away too.

The tank has gone from my most worrying to my most interesting to watch the daily antics between the occupants.

Cheers
TW

If I keep trying, one day I'll get a decent shot.

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Cheers
TW

You know Robyn,

That last shot isn't all too bad, one can begin to appreciate your fish from your pictures almost as much as if seen on a clear shot on the web.

Do you feed anything special there?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am really happy with that picture - I don't know how come it worked so well, but it really captures what he does look like. He is quite a pretty boy.

Re: the food. Do you remember all my headaches with feeding these fish? How I thought they were going to starve on me. They will only accept frozen brine shrimp, daphnia & bloodworm. I use Hikari brand which supposedly is enriched with vitamins & is 100% bacteria free. I try to trick them into eating the processed stuff, by mixing it in with frozen food as it thaws - but they are not to be tricked. If they do accidentally swallow some, it is spat straight back out - either through its mouth or surprisingly, out through the gills. The processed stuff just serves to pollute the tank. LFS told me (belatedly, after I worried myself to death for 10 days while they remained on starvation diet) that this is all they'd eat for him. Very strange, as he insists they are from German breeders & are tank bred fish.

I've gotten used to the routine now, but I think if I buy another apisto, I'll ask LFS to show me it feeding, before I buy.

Cheers
TW

Here's a shot of the Lady of the tank, still in her breeding clothes. She is down to only 3 or 4 fry. Last night it was 4 - but today, I have only been able to count 3.

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Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Sorry to hear about the fry loss, but I would assume that the slow growth rate and the community setting both decrease the chance of a successful brood by quite a bit.

Besides the fact that the fry may be eaten by others, tiny food for them is sparse, at best.

But hey, maybe she is not still in her breeding clothes, but instead she is in them again

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It's not a community tank. It has only the main attraction (the apistos) 2 dither fish (pencils) & 2 otos for algae. No other fish are planned for this tank (unless they are apisto babies).

But hey, maybe she is not still in her breeding clothes, but instead she is in them again

I think she is hedging her bet both ways. She is still guarding her remaining fry, but definitely displaying for the male when he passes by. He doesn't seem to be taking her up at the moment.

I am using a baby medicine dropper to push frozen baby brine shrimp in their direction. I don't know if they eat it or not, but I can see mum doing so. Hope she leaves some for the kids.

Someone here has already told me it is doubtful any will survive, particularly as she only started out with 5. That is not very many. I put this down to her adolescence & hope that her future broods will prove larger. I will be very disappointed, but will not give up hope, if none make it. I've had the parents just over a month, this was their 2nd batch of eggs, so they are showing promise of being a very fertile pair.

Cheers
TW

Yes Robyn,

There is no need to be dissapointed if it shouldn't work out this time around, there will be many more chances to come.

If you really want to force a successful fry generation then you can always take more steps to enhance your chances. For one thing, the pencils will eat fry if unguarded. Also, the adult Apistos may start to eat them after a while as they don't guard them for too long and then consider them food. You could also remove fry and have a grow-out tank committed to that purpose (bare bottom etc).

I personally find the success of raising fry in a "normal" tank much more satisfying as it appears to me to be way more natural.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If it happens naturally in the tank, that's good. But I won't be allowed a sep little tank for fry, as much as I might like that. I have just been made to close down my hospital tank (I wanted to keep one ready & cycled in case of sick fish).

Anyway, I have been enjoying watching the interaction between her, the pencils & her sometime mate/sworn enemy. If I separated them, I wouldn't get to watch this & I'm enjoying it.

I know I'm going to get very excited each time & one day, some may make it.

I would take the pencils out, but the only reason they are there is to spread out the aggression between male & female. Their aggression is a lot better now, but if I take out the pencils, well, she will have no-one to pick on except for the male. So they will stay & fry will take it's chances.

All your advice is very good & makes sense, but I also agree with your final comment. In the tank is the natural way, so even though success is less likely, surely that will make any success even more exciting.

Cheers
TW

In the tank is the natural way, so even though success is less likely, surely that will make any success even more exciting

Not much to say about this other than



That is the spirit,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Best shot of female to date. She is into approx day 22-23 of guarding her single remaining fry.

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Cheers
TW

What a difference a day makes. This is Mrs.Bitaeniata today. I'm fascinated how this fish can look so bright & pretty one day (see the pic above, taken of her yesterday) & the next day (today), you'd think she was a different fish altogether. Either she has decided 24 days is enough to guard, or her fry is no longer answering her call, or her fry is no more. At the moment, time will tell, as I'm not sure.

Anyway, here she is in her drab everyday dress.

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Cheers
TW

I have the beginnings of an algae outbreak in this tank & I want to try & catch it before it gets any worse. I heard the planted gang mentioned from time to time that a double dose of excel can help. So for this 23.7G tank, I thought 4ml, combined with maybe a 3 day blackout.

Does this sound right?

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

First to the color change of the female: I am intrigued by the colors these females have, hell - I am intrigued by the gender identification in the first place . My female viejita colored up (yellow) after 3 to 4 days in the QT and has never changed her color back to gray, she is always yellow. Why - who knows!

The Excel: It would be more inportant to identify the algae first as excel does not help against all algae. I think it is most successful against BBA, but dosing is a tender topic as it depends on the plants in the tank (Egeria will be killed, for example).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi LF

The plants in the tank are wisteria, crypts, java moss, blue stricta, hygro, Sword (E. Parviflorus Tropica) & annubia. Are they ok with the double dose of excel? I'm not sure what BBA looks like, but I'll describe what I see in the tank. I see dark spotting on many leaves & today for the 1st time I've seen what looks like short fuzz or hair on the edges of some leaves. Here's a pic, I hope you can see what I mean.

If the double dose excel would work, do I do this double dose daily - or what is the usual regimen?

Re: the female & her colour change. She's amazing & she does it in a flash. Her personality changes too. When in breeding dress, she is very confident (although no longer the wife from hell she once was). Even though she shows the male her side in submission, if he swims on by - she slightly chases him & gives him a nudge with her mouth. I don't think she's biting him - it looks like she's saying to him, pls don't go - come back But now that she's in her drab dress, she runs away from him. She comes out to feed & swims around freely & while I can't call it aggression, occasionally he'll chase her & she'll run. She'd never do that in her breeding dress. BTW, no fry anymore.

Compare this to my triple red female. She is always yellow. She's had eggs twice & fry (for one week only) I've never seen her change colour. She was yellow when I brought her home & yellow she remains. If she ever changed colour or personality, I never noticed. I'm really sorry for all your gender issues with your cac's. It's such a shame, cause when it works out, they are such interesting little personalities to watch. Dwarf apistos are my current favourites.

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Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Look in my 125G log on this week's update, there are a few shots of BBA. You describe as dark spotting doesn't seem like BBA, more like green spot algae (Excel would most likely not help). The hair, could be some form of hair algae or staghorn algae and Excel may help there.

I never used a double dosage, always the normal dose for a full tank load, over the course of 7 to 10 days (the latter may work better).

Although I am the last one to know what to do about it, it seems that your algae issues stem from a change in environment, either more fish waste or less ferts from the substrate, or inconsistent CO2, or inconsistent water column ferts, or a combination of all of the above. Even if you fight off the algae with excel now, it will come back if the initial factors are not corrected (I know that one for sure).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF

Yes, I visited your log after my last post here & saw your BBA. I didn't look really the same, but I wondered if my fuzz is the beginning stage?

Anyway, I think I will try a few days of no light & 7-10 days of normal dose excel.

This is the low tech tank - so no C02 & fish load is light (2 apistos, 2 otos & 1 pencil fish in 23.7G). Ferts & traces are only 1 dose, once a week (each on a different day).

I am fairly certain what caused the problem. When the female was guarding her fry (for 24 days) I read up on ways to help her succeeded in her task. I read these fish are jumpish & sometimes get confused when the lights turn on & off & in their confusion, sometimes eat their fry. I also read that leaving low light on overnight helps with this & also helps her guard from predators (even though the predator was only a pencil fish). So, I bought a low wattage night light for the tank. It was on a timer to turn on just before the main lights turned off & they remained on until the main lights turned back on. So for 24 days, the tank had a light on 24/7. I'm sure this caused the problem & I won't do this next time. The female will just have to do her best, with no night light.

Anyway, that's my theory for the algae problem. Sound's feasible?

Cheers
TW

Sound's feasible?

Indeed, it does sound feasible. The increase in light duration may have done the trick.

Let me ask you a question: would it be possible to trim the infested leaves off and just see if algae appears on other ones as well? If you corrected the issue, then no new algae should develop if you remove the existing one.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn,

I added a picture to my 125G log that shows you the effects of Excel on BBA, after only 3 days.

Hope you like it,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tank is in day 8 of an excel treatment for algae. Treatment also included a 3 day blackout. Things are looking better in there - it seemed to work. I trimmed down the blue stricta pretty severely, but have left trimming of the hygro & wisteria for one more week.

The green spot from on the annubia has improved heaps, but can still be seen a bit.

Here is a full shot.

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Cheers
TW

My female has her breeding dress on again for the last day or so. I have been watching her trying to entice the male, but he seems a very reluctant romeo. She does the submissive tilt to the side, but includes a nudge when he swims on past. I'm sure it's come back here nudge, not chasing him away. Tonight I found eggs, but as they are white, I think that means they're not fertilized - so it doesn't look like he did his bit. Anyway, fingers crossed, in case I'm wrong.

Here she is in her breeding dress.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Tonight's post starts on the previous page, which has a whole tank shot, taken after water change.

I've added a couple of those film cannisters talked about earlier. Haven't seem the female use them, but the male just loves them.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Lastly a shot of the male. The anubia in the shot was covered in green spot last week, but has improved heaps. This shot shows a mark in the middle of the male that has worried me for sometime. He feeds, swims & acts normally (for him - which is always as a timid fish). But that whitish spot you see protrudes a little. I no longer have anywhere to medicate him, as I had to shut down my hospital tank & QT is now home to my triple reds. The instructions with the ADA soil I'm sure said not to medicate in the tank. So, I have my fingers crossed but, worry this may eventually be some sort of fatal parasite. Anyway, fingers crossed for him or at least some surviving fry.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Nice pictures and nice fishies. Too funny that the male hangs out in the film canister, I wonder why.

I don't know what the problem with the stripe on your male would be, but I find the "The instructions with the ADA soil I'm sure said not to medicate in the tank" statement very interesting. That is an aspect of this substrate that I didn't know about. What is going to happen if you use meds?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I only put the cannisters in last night during water change. Maybe female didn't use them then, as she was already guarding elsewhere some white eggs. I think white means they are not good, either with fungus or not fertilized. My guess is not fertilized. I think she has abandoned them now, as she is going in the film cannisters now too.

I am positive that the male is hiding to avoid the female - not because she is aggressive (she is no longer the wife from hell) but because she wants him to mate & he's the reluctant romeo. I'm positive when she nudges him, it is a "come this way, big boy" signal, but he just swims away.

He is a very skittish fish. He is scared when I put food in the tank. He eats it, but with each new sprinkle of food, off he runs & then gradually creeps back. If I make a sudden move when I'm near the tank - such as raising my hand to drop food in, off he dashes to hide.

Maybe all this is because he has something wrong with him. I dug out the instructions for the ADA soil system. The soil itself does not seem to have any warnings about medicines. The warning is in the Power Sand leaflet. This is not sand at all, but a volcanic rock & peat-base organic substrate that goes underneath the aquasoil (it looks like pieces of pumice stone). The instruction leaflet says "DO NOT add medicines or chemical to this product". I wouldn't be adding to the product, but to the tank - which I really think is the same thing anyway. So, I guess no medicines in that tank. I wonder if this means I also shouldn't be adding the ferts or traces??? I think it must be ok, as the Jeff you got your wood from - he uses ADA & the ferts.

I am considering getting a piece of Styrofoam (spelling??) & cutting a hole to fit a plastic chinese type food container (don't know if you have the same sort of ones in US). The plan is that the foam will fit tight enough & just under the rim of the container & then the whole thing should be able to float in the tank, but he would be in separate water while I medicate him.

Reluctant to do this, I am the worlds worst fish catcher. This would mean I'd need to remove all plants & wood to catch this guy - not something I'm in a hurry to do.

I wasn't going to do this, but if they have fry again, I might try putting a couple in a breeding net, as insurance against something bad happening to the male. If he didn't have that white mark & didn't spend his time hiding from the wife, I'd rather watch the parents raise them in the tank - it was lots of fun last time.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

The foam/container idea seems good, as long as the fish wouldn't be in there for an extended period as the oxygen would run out rather sooner than later (no agitation) and ammonia would rise quickly as well. A few hours should be ok though, but that is it.

A good time to catch a fish is when the lights are out in the tank. I got the most skittish Apisto last night in no time. The secret is to herd it into a corner section of the tank that is not covered by plants or scape and slowly close in on it with the net.

Fish have characters, I agree. But in general, a fish that prefers to hide (if not a natural hider, of course) tends to be sick or bossed around,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have no corner section of the tank that is not covered by plants or scape. Front corners of the tank are curved & they can always escape from me there, as the net won't sit square against the curved corner.

A few hours should be ok though, but that is it.

Hmmm, then it probably wouldn't do, as I read up the dose. Every other day for 3 days.

I might try to get the foam on hand anyway and weigh up the pros & cons of treating him in this way. He doesn't appear to be losing weight, which I'm told to expect if he has an internal parasite. I thought this might be what he has.

Cheers
TW

When I got home from work, the male was in the back corner & 4 hours later hadn't moved, so I decided it was time for action. Not only that my cac male in the other tank didn't eat yesterday or today & was sitting close to the bottom, not moving much. I really, really like him - I haven't seen a cac with fin pattern as nice as his anywhere in Sydney.

So, I used the chopstick trick to chase them into my net. Either because they are sick, or because the chopstick works, I caught both fish quickly, without removing any of the scape or plants. That is a first.

Earlier I bought one of those really cheap $12 plastic fish/mice etc pet containers which holds only 6 litres. I put a breeding trap in, so one male is in the trap & one male is in the tank. I had a small immersible filter & took some filter material from my big tank to seed it. Then added their 1st dose of meds.

So cross your fingers for me that I didn't wait too long. I think maybe I did in the case of the bita male. I noticed since last night he is panting & not swimming much at all.

Mrs Bita has realised he's gone yet. She still has her party dress on.


Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

I'm sorry but I didn't read anywhere what you are treating with. Are you assuming it's bacterial or fungal, or are you just giving him a slew of medicines?

anywho...good luck

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yes, I wish you good luck as well. It sounds scary, and I don't understand why it would affect 2 fish in different tanks at the same time

Usually, the most common explanation in this case is the tab water or shared utilities between tanks, like nets, buckets, and so forth.

"He doesn't appear to be losing weight, which I'm told to expect if he has an internal parasite." - I have heard (may have been bensaf or tetratech) that fish do not get thinner when having parasites as the parasites multiply and "fill up" the fish.

I am keeping my fingers crossed,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Matty & LF

I am assuming internal parasite - just because the 2 apisto forums I've been visiting, say internal parasite is very common with apistos & also because I don't know what else to suspect. They both have some different symptons.

that fish do not get thinner when having parasites as the parasites multiply and "fill up" the fish.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

My cac has from the time I bought him worried me with his underbelly shape. Similar to tetratech's female - but he has not exhibited symptons & also seemed fine - so I did nothing. There was no wasting away, not getting thinner or anything - but still the belly shape worried me. Then Thursday & Friday - no eating & just sitting on the bottom, not moving much.

LF, you know all my worries about the bita. Shy, hiding & what not. Combine that with what looks like a scale being pushed outwards from inside. He had been eating & was not losing weight either. The scale has been steadily getting worse & Friday when I came home from work he was sitting near the gravel at back of tank. I went & did the weekly grocery shopping & came back & he hadn't moved. So, I decided it was time for action.

It was recommended that I use Flagyl or metronidazol. I don't know what the situation is in US, but that stuff here is prescription drug only, usually for humans. I have rung a few vets, who all say "they don't do fish". It was suggested if I was on friendly terms with a GP, to ask him to write a prescription for my fish - but I can't bring myself to do that - too chicken.

Next suggestion was Octazin by Waterlife - which I'm told has one of those ingredients - but at much lower strength & not as effective. You used to be able to get this from LFS, but most LFS's told me the product is no longer allowed to be imported into Aus. Go figure that - other Waterlife products make it it in - but not this one.

After being a pest & asking at several LFS (in case of old stock) the LFS where I get my C02 gave me some tablets in an unmarked plastic bag. No name, no ingredients & no dosage instructions - but they verbally tell me it's Octazin & told me the dosage. I'll ask no questions - just glad I have the product.

I am meant to redose every 3rd day, but forgot to ask how long to continue with treatment.

A suggestion also for the bita is to use a cotton bud to put some multifix like meds directly on the damaged scale. I don't want to mix meds, so I'm going to continue with octazin alone to start with.

I have my fingers & toes crossed, as I really like both these fish - even though the bita has caused me a lot of worry, ever since I got him.

Thanks again for the input.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Although I have no idea about the meds that you got, I would suggest to dose for two weeks. Did they mention anything about a water change in between? I would say that if your fish by now just sits there, within 2 weeks he is either better or ...

About that scale: Are you sure it is a scale sticking out? And only one or a few? Does it look like he has been bitten? How could he have gotten an injury? Can it be that the scale is being pushed out from the inside? Is there a lump under that scale section?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Mr Bita is not going to make it & I'm incredibly sad about that. He is still alive, but he is on his side. Sometimes, he struggles back upright, but I can tell it is such hard work for the poor guy.

Can it be that the scale is being pushed out from the inside?

That is exactly what I am seeing.

Is there a lump under that scale section?

I think so.

Poor Mrs Bita. I feel sorry for her too. She is still in her breeding dress & it now looks like I will soon have no male for her.

I have redosed the tank one day early, & yes, I do a 50% water change between doses. When I decided on the 2nd dose, it was before he was on his side, but already he was struggling to keep upright & he couldn't swim properly (sort of dragged himself along).

With the cac, he is still upright, but keeping close to the bottom. With him, I hoped all along that I imagined a lump just in front of his anus. Tried to think he just was bloated & needed to poop. I should have acted earlier. I will probably have an easier time replacing Mr Cac (but I hope I don't need to) but don't think I'll be able to replace Mr Bita at all.

I'm sure Mr Bita will be dead by morning, but if Mr Cac is still alive, I might ring around even more vets to see if I can get a prescription for the actual meds that I need.

I'm really frustrated by this.

Cheers
TW

I am soo sorry Robyn

This is one of my greatest fears when it comes to fishies. Dying is one thing, but having a fish that one likes to have as a pair and then not getting the other one a new mate is really aweful.

Maybe it is time that you think about euthanizing Mr Bita. If you are most certain that he is not going to make it then all you do is to prolong your's and the fishe's suffering.

Again I raise the question: why two fish in two tanks at the same time? Just by chance?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe it is time that you think about euthanizing Mr Bita

What you say makes sense & I do think he is past help, but what if I'm wrong. Unless LFS told big porky fibs, I won't be able to replace him. This will probably be one time I hope LFS did fib, I will certainly ask him to try to get me another male - even if I have to buy a pair. Perhaps it was only to make the sale, but he told me on sale that he would struggle to get more, as they never come in (you know, buy this fish now - otherwise you miss your big chance). I can't bring myself to euthanize him, just in case the meds help him over night.

I don't know why one sick in each tank, but I know Mr Cac, whilst symptom-less, had the lumpy & pinched tummy from the get go - just acted so much like a healthy fish, I let it slide on by.

Both tanks are pampered tanks. One is a 20G tank & the other 23G, not overstocked by any means. Both contained one pair of apisto, 2 otos & one of them also had one pencil fish. I don't overfeed & have one feed free day a week. I never miss a weekly water change & the ammonia nitrite are nil & nitrate is low. Both tanks have the ADA soil Ammozonia, which I specially put in there to give them the soft, acidic water they are meant to thrive in. The females both appear really strong & healthy and the fish have both bred several times (just no surviving fry to show for it).

I don't know what else I'm doing wrong.

I did have one LFS tell me once I was headed for trouble because I do weekly 50% water changes. He said this was too extreme & I should do weekly 10 or 20% changes. But everyone else here agrees with the 50% regimen ???

Cheers
TW

I did have one LFS tell me once I was headed for trouble because I do weekly 50% water changes.

Now, that is a bunch of bull ...

If your water temp is about the same, and you treat the water for chlorine/chloramine, then there is need to worry that 50% is too much. Just think about discus tanks where water changes 3 times per week of 50% or more is very common if one want to breed them.

Do you share certain tools between tanks, like algae sponges, nets, buckets to refill, and what not?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes all are shared. I don't have room to store additional 120L water change containers. I have 2 of them - one for removal of tank water & one for adding the fresh treated water. I share nets, but I hang them out to dry each time, which at least in the case of ich is meant to mean nothing can survive. Gravel vacs are also shared. Nothing in the community tank has died for a long time & they share all the same equipment too. Plus, both females appear fit & well, with good body shapes.

Cheers
TW

Ok,

I read the words between your lines, meaning "what are the chances that only the male got infected from sharing equipment?". And right you are, but there is of course a chance, albeit a small one. I try to only share equipment that is used to extract water from the tank, except the python for adding water into the tank. I have 4 nets and 4 sponges. When I move fish from one to the other tank I net them out with one net and add them to the other tank with the other net. I know it may be overboard, but this way I reduce a small chance even more.

Next guess: have they been in the same tank at any point in time, like the QT? Or the LFS tank (maybe even more important than the previous question)?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, I will get additional nets & algae pads & keep each separate. etc. I will have to stick with the same water containers, as I just have no storage room for others.

They have never been in the same tank. They came from separate LFS. Mr & Mrs Bita moved straight into their dedicated tank. No need to QT them, as the cycling fish were removed when they were added & they became the sole inhabitants.

Mr & Mrs Cac moved into the QT & QT eventually became their permanent home.

However, the otos in with Mr & Mrs Bita did QT with Mr & Mrs Cac, before moving across to their eventual permanent home with the Bitas. Both otos are still doing fine. When I added the pencil fish, I took a chance & didn't QT him, as his presence was urgently required to try to get the female not to beat up on the male (remember she was then the wife from hell)

I guess the nets, algae pads or even the otos could have transferred something & as a co-incidence, for some reason it was the male that had the lower immune system & couldn't fight what was transferred.

Cheers
TW

I know it is very unlikely that your fish or nets etc would transfer an illness to the male Apistos only. I assume it is as unlikely that this could have been achieved via food, like live food for your fry.

I guess we will never know for sure what happened.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yep, I guess I will never know. I fed the fry frozen baby brine shrimp only.

I found this quote from another apisto forum

I may be more cynical than most but certain generalities seem to apply to Apistogramma. One partner of a pair always dies if you have spawned them once and not salvaged any fry. One partner of a pair often kills the other because no replacements are available. Something they eat disagrees with them and some die. If you really like a certain species and lavish it with the best of everything, it will die.
These fish are perverse; sometimes those you ignore the most live the longest.

Seems true in my case

Cheers
TW

Sadly, Mr Bita was dead when I woke this morning.

Not a happy day in TW's world today.

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear that Robyn

There is not much else I can say to console you, except maybe that I know how you feel - a mixture of sadness, anger, and confusion.

Hang in there honey,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo

I'm incredibly sad. Though he always caused me a lot of worry, he & his wife also gave me a lot of really interesting tank watching times.

I forgot to include the final part of the apisto quote from another forum I mentioned above, so here it is.

Just keep at it and sometimes you end up with a mess of fry from some rare and beautiful species. Getting there is half the fun and all the expense.

Well, that's what I'll do. I will keep trying to save the male cac & in the meantime, will firstly investigate if there is any chance of getting the widow a new husband.

Thanks for consolations.

Cheers
TW

You are very welcome Robyn,

We are not here only to bicker around about each others tanks but also to be there for each other in times like these.

And yes, getting info on availability of a new male is a good idea, I think to remember that you are looking for a new pair, right? That may be a good move. But it also may be worthwhile waiting a little so see how the female turns out, with regards to illness.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn,
Sorry to hear about the apisto. Some reason I missed this thread.

My Scapes

But it also may be worthwhile waiting a little so see how the female turns out, with regards to illness

Good point LF.

Hi tetratech welcome to this thread & thanks for your kind words.

The bad news (apart from the very worst news that my male bita died) is that it's not looking positive for a replacement. There are about 3-4 LFS in Sydney max, who sell apistos (other than rams & bolivans). My best lead was the LFS who sold him, but he has confirmed he does not expect anymore of this type. I've sent an email to the importer who was going to get me the dehane previously, but I haven't heard back. So far, all say no - they've never had one of these ever.

The good news. Phone calls to vets got me nowhere. So I thought I will just turn up on the vet's doorstep, with details of the med I need & throw myself at the vet's mercy. Yay, she gave me the prescription & the cac is still alive. I have done a 100% water change, so I'm not mixing the meds.

Do you think that I should add the female cac to the hospital tank, just to make sure?

EDIT: Mrs Bita has free swimming fry, so my poor sick male must have made a last valiant effort before I took him out of the tank. What should I do, what gives them the best chance. Leaving them with her? There are only the 2 otos & 1 pencil fish & the only place I have them would be in a breeding net in the same tank.

EDIT # 2: I've moved the pencil fish out. Now, all that's left is the otos. Otos are the only ones left to eat the fry, unless the female does this herself. I am going to put the night light back in & just suffer the resultant algae.

So, does anyone think I should:-

1. remove the otos
2. put the fry in a breeding net
3. medicate my female cac (just in case) BTW, she is not the mother I'm talking about, but the wife of the cac that I am medicating with metro.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'll ask the same question in the cichlid forum.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

1. remove the otos - I don't think that would be required. I doubt the Otos go after any fry, that is not their food source at all.

2. put the fry in a breeding net - Might not be a bad idea, this way you can feed them directly with baby brime shrimp and such. You probably will have to feed at least 3 times a day, 5 times is better (smaller quantities, of course). Make sure you prvide some hiding space in the net, like clippings from the Wisteria. This will help avoiding too much light in it as well.

3. medicate my female cac (just in case) BTW, she is not the mother I'm talking about, but the wife of the cac that I am medicating with metro. - I would say this is up to you, you know all the advantages and disadvantages of medicating when not required. I would say IF the med doesn't have any side effects then you could do it for the sake of your mind, even if the cac is otherwise just fine.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

QUICK EDIT: If you cannot get the fry with a net, try a turkey baster

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF,

Can't decide yet on points 2 & 3.

2. I can still target feed them with frozen BBS with my baby medicine dropper, whilst they are in the tank. I did this last time with success. If I remove them from the tank, when it's time to add them back - what if the female won't tolerate them. If they are there, she will tolerate them as her babies. I'll keep thinking this one through. Maybe I should do 50/50.

3. To medicate the female or not - as you say, my call. I just can't decide. I'll ponder this one a bit longer.

Cheers
TW

I haven't thought about a 50/50 option at all, that sounds like something to think about.

My first impression was that it is a good idea. How many fry do you think you have?

My second thought was more cautious (isn't it usually that way?). What if Apistos have some sense that if the fry start to dissapear that all is lost and they give up on the care?

Again, I don't know what is right or wrong, hopefully the experts in the Cichlid Forum can answer your thread there.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn, not to change the subject, but I was shocked to hear that Steven Irwn (The crocdile Hunter) has been killed in a fish related accident. Supposely a stingray barb to the heart killed him. I'm very sorry to hear that.

My Scapes

How many fry do you think you have?

Hard to say, I don't have a clear view of them & when they are on the gravel, they almost blend in. She has done better than last time, as I only ever saw 5. This time, I'd say at least 15 - which still isn't many. I think this is because she is young & inexperienced.


Cheers
TW

That is a good number, not too few but still managable.

Robyn and tetratech - Adam created a thread in the Recovery Room about the Crocodile hunter.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

tetratech, yes it is big news here & very sad. Everyone is talking about it.

Hard to believe, he was young & so very much alive. One of those "larger than life" type characters. I feel terribly sad for his wife & young children.

Apparently after he was stung he suffered cardiac arrest. Still very hard to believe it's true.

Cheers
TW

Well, bad news just keeps rolling in. I know not so bad in the scale of things when you think of Steve Irwin, but still, sad to say Mr Cac died today. I decided to medicate Mrs. Cac now. Whether or not I imagine it due to paranoia, I convinced myself I see a swelling & pinching in her abdomen. She is eating, swimming & what not, but I will medicate her for two weeks as a precaution. Even though she currently has no mate, I don't want to lose her as I like her a lot. If ever I see another pair with markings as nice as her dead mate, I will grab them - but no need to rush.

Now for my plan for Mrs Bita & her fry(at least 20). I sought advice here & on 2 other apisto forums. I'm moving mum & fry into a 1.5G tank, where it will be easier to target feed fry. Tank is small enough to make 50% water changes every other day not so hard. Their best chance of survival is:-

1. staying with mum
2. live baby brine shrimp
3. absolutely clean water

Wish me luck.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I wish you good luck
Sorry to hear that the other male died as well. Did he show similar symptoms?

Let me ask you a question about the fry? Why do you want to move the mother? I think water conditions would be much better in such a small tank without an adult fish. Further, I know that some animals eat their fry when threatened, at least this way they get the protein they need to make more babies later on when the threat is over. I don't know if this applies to Apistos, but it is worthwhile thinking about it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Right, mum is back in the main tank again. I wanted her with her fry, so she would continue to herd them together (they are so hard to see, unless in a bunch). Without her, they are spread all over & even in such a small tank, they are hard to see. There were around 20 before the move, but I could only catch 15. Mum had started gathering them in her mouth & moving them elsewhere (she wasn't eating them - at least not then). So there are 5 in the main tank still & I guess their chances may not be good.

The main reason I didn't want to separate mum from fry, is when as juveniles I add them back to her tank, she may reject them & attack. I don't know how long I will be allowed to have the baby tank running for. I had to make a deal with hubby for it to happen & it was only on a short term basis.

But during the move, she did become stressed & the breeding dress is gone. So I worried about what she would do & she was put back in her own tank.

Anyway, that's all for tonight.

EDIT: I feel very sorry for her right now, with someone taking all her babies away. She is not very happy.

Cheers
TW

I add them back to her tank, she may reject them & attack

Apistos will only take care of their fry for a short duration, after that they are on their own anyway.

The deals we have to make to get a lousy small tank up and running

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear that the other male died as well. Did he show similar symptoms?

Sorry, forgot to answer this one. Not really, only that in his final days he wouldn't eat or swim around, so that was the same. The bita looked like he had something in his insides, maybe trying to burrow out. Was always shy - timid, hiding, jumpy & skittish even. The cac had the "not quite right" looking underbelly, but acting normally. Was confident, came right to the surface for food. Would attack an eyedropper I use to feed frozen brineshrimp (the bita was scared of the eyedropper). Only acted sick at the very end.

The deals we have to make to get a lousy small tank up and running

You're exactly right - more than you think. Get up & run is what I have to do, 'cause I have been slack not done much of that. So the price of the tank is to complete a set amount of running weekly, while the tank is running.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Sorry to hear about the loses.
How long did you have the two apistos that died?

My Scapes

Thanks tetratech

I got them around June & with the cac, he always had the abdomen shape problem - just acted perfectly healthy.

How is your girl doing. I've checked in at your log to see, but could see no news on her for a few days.



Cheers
TW

Well, do you know what my clever girl has done? She has put back on her party dress, rounded up about 7 fry I left in the tank & she is busy guarding them.

So, I have a chance now in 2 tanks.

Fingers crossed.

After this drama is over, I will get back on to the topic of plants - but for now I am immersed in this saga.

Cheers
TW

I will get back on to the topic of plants - but for now I am immersed in this saga

You are on the topic of plants, as they provide the natural cover for mother and fry

Robyn, do you happen to know how long it takes for the fry to reach a size where they can eat crushed flakes? I don't know that.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No, I will have to research.

Doing my water changes & whatnot now, so if it's not too late I will see what I can find, or else I will do it soon.

BTW, my female cac definitely has the abdomen problem now. It is swollen at around the place of her anus & caves in just in front of that. This was the same as for the male.

Here is a shot of her tonight in the hospital tank. It is blurry, but it serves it's purpose. You should be able to see her poor little shape. So far, she does not act sick - but I prepare myself now for her eventual loss.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Unbelievable

Seems almost as if you would have to start all over again. Albeit I can't see any issues in my Apistos, it makes me worried to see them die off like flies. And even more so as I am incapable to see damage to them the way you identify it. I had no clue that the shape of my male Triple-Red, the one that died after two days in the tank, was not right, and even now looking at the pictures of him I can't see anything wrong. Am I in denial?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Am I in denial?

I don't think you are. If you have looked & cannot see the funny shaped abdomen & observed for strange behaviour - what more can you do.

I was in denial though, as I never mentioned the problems here at FP or to anyone until too late. All the time I said to myself, I think I see a problem, but maybe it is nothing after all - so I did nothing.

Not sure now if I could have done anything anyway (except maybe put the Mrs Cac in the hospital tank before her abdomen swelled up). The metro doesn't seem to be doing anything, as her tummy shape is worse than yesterday.

The only one looking normal at this time is my female bita & as you might imagine, I am rather paranoid about apistos at the moment. The apisto fry is much smaller than platy fry - like a pin head with a tail. I put 15 in the holding tank last night & I don't know how many are still alive. I can see no more than 3 or so at anyone time, but they blend in so well in the gravel you can't see them unless they move. Without mum, they don't bunch together, which makes them harder to see. They also seem to swim less. I probably should have just left them with mum, so she can teach them to eat.

Cheers
TW

do you happen to know how long it takes for the fry to reach a size where they can eat crushed flakes

Ingo, still haven't done any internet or book based research, but asked on an apisto forum. This is quoted from part of an answer from someone who has bred apistos & actually has a 3 or 4 yr old Bita male (with no mate, but NFS & not same local anyway).

Feeding dry food can be difficult to control, it will take at least 2 months or more before the fry is big enough to have interest in normal dry food. Never stick with one single type of dry food as it does not provide a good balance in their diet so it's always best to supplement with BBS and other type of live/frozen food. It'll be at least 4 months before they're large enough to have a go at full size BS, but BS isn't as nutritional as BBS.

He has half offered to raise my fry for me & then give me back 50% - naturally still with no guarantee of success. I thinking of taking him up on this.

Cheers

Cheers
TW

The offer to raise my fry for me has been confirmed and he offers 50% of surving fry back to me. I haven't been in contact with him as long as I have with the FP guys, but he seems genuine. With my last back of fry, I had trouble sourcing frozen BBS - he told me where to go & even offered to give me some of his, if I really got stuck.

I have a very good feeling about him. He is very helpful & I believe trust worthy. I think it is very kind of him to offer to do this & I think I will trust him with the survivors in the holding tank, but leave mum with the ones in the tank.

He has also offered the services of his male to breed with my female in the future. What a kind man. I think I'm lucky to find someone that lives (reasonably) close to me prepared to do it.

What do you think?

Cheers
TW

Well if you don't feel like you can raise them on your own, I'd give them to someone who can, seeing as how you won't be having future hatchings(sorry about your losses ). If you feel like you can do it, by all means try your hand at it. If I ever have any fish breed for me I'll be intent on raising them myself.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matty

I can still do both. I have 6 or 7 in the main tank with mum & I'll leave them there.

I would be giving him the 15 that I removed & placed in the holding tank.

My female had a very small batch a little while ago & successfully guarded the last fry for 23 days before it disappeared - so me keeping them by no means guarantees the survial, but I would have 7 to try it out.

If my male was alive, I wouldn't consider it at all - but I see it as giving me a better chance for continuing with this fish, if I manage to get some survivors from this final batch. It will be my only real guarantee of a perfect match as I don't know the local of my bita. LFS seller said Tefe, but several reliable sources have said no, it's from Peru, but local in Peru unknown.

I'll think about it another hour before I respond, but I think I will do it.

Cheers
TW

I'll think about it another hour before I respond

Well, more than an hour has gone by, did you make a move?

How would the transfer of the fry work out? If it is technically possible and if they guy seems honest about his intentions then I would say you should go for it. It saves you a lot of headaches.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hasn't happened yet, but we've agreed it will. Sad not to raise them myself, but I think this gives them the best chance. Plus I can have a go with the 5 or 6 still in the tank.

I didn't know that live BBS is only good for 24 hrs. That means unless I hatch my own, a 90 minute drive daily to pick it up. After striking yet a further deal with hubby, I am allowed to set up a small tank for the brine shrimp

On a sad note, my lovely little cac girl was dead when I got home tonight. . She was so much smaller than the male, she didn't last long at all once she had the swelling. I wonder if the meds killed her, but I guess not, as her abdomen was the same as her husband's. I wish some of her fry had made it, but she lost hers in 7 days.

I don't know what do with some java moss balls that I put in the hospital tank with the sick fish - to make them not feel so exposed. I want to use them again - but how to be sure that no meds or other bad things are attached. Can plants be sterilized. Can I put them in a bucket with some all purpose meds to kill anything off? Or, what else?

Cheers

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I think the most common thing we had to say to you in the last few days was "I am so sorry". Let's hope that this is the last time we have to do so for a while: I am so sorry

Did anyone, so far, identify what exactly killed your fish? Maybe the guy who takes the fry?

Yeah, BBS expire so fast. That is one of the reasons why I have mixed emotions on having fry from my Apistos. I is a lot of effort.

So - What is a Java Moss Ball? Is it a Moss Ball, which actually is an algae, or is it Java Moss rolled up by yourself into a ball shape?

And:

After striking yet a further deal with hubby, I am allowed to set up a small tank for the brine shrimp

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Did anyone, so far, identify what exactly killed your fish? Maybe the guy who takes the fry?

He has now just left the house & taken the fry with him, except for the ones left in the main tank.

I explained to him the lump on my male, that looked like something pushing outwards from his insides. He said that this would have been TB & is common with Bitas. He said that it is only treatable when no symptoms. By the time the lump was showing, it was probably too late. In any case, metro was not the right treatment for TB.

He looked at my female Bita & he pointed out to me the very beginnings of the abdomen lump thing on her as well. He said it is parasitic worms & again metro is not the right thing. He gave me the names of some meds, but also said I can use pet all wormer's (the tabs for dogs or cats). What I do is crush a tablet & dissolve it in a small container of tank water. Then add a couple of black worms (just enough for her to eat) & then. The black worms will start to absorb the medication & then I feed the worms to the female one by one. That way, I am target medicating her, without treating the fry or messing up the ADA soil with meds. He said she should be treatable as it is very early stages. He said it is very common with apistos & metro would not have helped - thus the death of the cacs.

I hope that I can fix this & I don't have yet another death. Don't think I could handle that right now, as it has been just one after the other since Monday. The only good thing has been the fry & I really hope this guy can raise them.

He was really nice & spent a couple of hours here, just talking tanks & setting up my brine shrimp hatchery.

He is going to give me picture updates of the fry from time to time.

Cheers
TW

What is a Java Moss Ball

Forgot to answer that. It is java moss, formed into a ball shape, then tied to fishing line & weight on the bottom. LFS have the fishing line quite long so they float, but I have shortened all the fishing line, so the balls sit just slightly above the gravel. They look like bushes on the aquarium floor & I quite liked them. The java moss was contained within netting & could easily be removed at each water change, so I could clean them or trim them, & then I would arrange a little group of them together (say 3 or 4 in a bunch in the corner). They did not look at all like java moss balls at all anymore, but like a little hedge of bunch of bushy moss.

How can I make sure they are ok to go back in the tank. I have them in a bucket outside at the moment.

Cheers
TW

He said it is very common with apistos

I had no idea that Apistos are such sensitive fishies, after all, my viejita gave me no troubles ever. Now I will always look at them thinking they won't be around much longer.

I would leave the moss for a day in a bucket, change the water twice and always add a good dosage of dechlor. I think that would be enough. Maybe swooshing the balls through the water will help to make sure that even the inside gets flushed.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

On the bright side - it may just be common here for this sickness. We don't get much in the way of apistos & maybe the quality we get isn't so good as you get there in the US, Europe or UK. It is another one of those catch 22's, where LFS don't stock apistos because the demand isn't there. Many LFS here don't know what apistos are - I have had to explain what they are to many LFS when I ask can they get some in for me. Your viejita have been going strong for such a long time, so please don't let my mishaps worry you. Every now & then, just look at the underbelly - but don't stress over it. With my problems, the swelling is the anus, which houses the worm - except for the Bita, which now seems had TB.

Anyway, he seems knowledgeable. He has been keeping & breeding apistos for 10 years - but that's 10 years of recognising what can go wrong in AUS, not US.

If all goes well, I should get my 50% share of survivors in December, before he goes away on holiday.

Cheers
TW

I should get my 50% share of survivors in December, before he goes away on holiday

Let's keep our fingers crossed that there are a few survivors

BTW, have you guys identified what will happen if there is an odd number of survivors?

Apistos US vs. AUS: didn't we at some point discuss that both our stocks are most likely from Germany, and as such carry the same risks?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I usually see them described as either "German bred" or "wild caught". Even so, would there be more than one German breeder? Would some breeders be better than others? Would some specimens be better than others? Would the best specimens go to the countries where the demand is greater?

I don't know - I'm just wondering these things myself.

I managed to get her to eat 5 live black worms that had been soaked in an all-wormer solution. I wondered if she'd eat them & now, the worrier that I am, I hope the medication itself doesn't kill her.

have you guys identified what will happen if there is an odd number of survivors

No, I'll leave it up to him to let me know my share. Apparently 2 have already gone. One died in the bag during transport & one died on the first night. Hope the rest make it.

I know I still have 5 fry in my tank & I've had my 1st batch of BBS hatch in my hatchery. Fry are still tiny, but have plumped up quite a bit & had little pink belly's tonight after feeding on the BBS. These guys seem to be eating better on the live stuff than on the previous fry I was feeding frozen BBS. They seem to like the hatchery idea

Sort of ruins the look of the tank.

This fish minder also told me I have black hair algae in the tank & blamed it on too many nutrients. Maybe with the ADA soil, I don't need to fertiliser at all - or maybe only every 2nd week.

Any suggestions of how you get rid of this algae?

Cheers
TW

Some Answers:

"Even so, would there be more than one German breeder?" - I am sure we have more than one guy in his basement over there in the old country.

"Would some breeders be better than others?" - For sure

"Would some specimens be better than others?" - Of course

"Would the best specimens go to the countries where the demand is greater?" - Now that is a good questions. If this would be so, would that mean that the "collector" for Australia would have to hunt down the fish in Germany? I don't think so

"...but have plumped up quite a bit & had little pink belly's tonight after feeding on the BBS." - That is great

"This fish minder also told me I have black hair algae in the tank & blamed it on too many nutrients. Maybe with the ADA soil, I don't need to fertiliser at all - or maybe only every 2nd week." - He may know his Apistos, but not planted tanks. Don't you dare to let him get into your head with regards to plants. I bet you that he doesn't even know who Jeff Senske is

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now that is a good questions. If this would be so, would that mean that the "collector" for Australia would have to hunt down the fish in Germany? I don't think so

Well, I don't think he actually has to do that - but ..... When I wanted the dehane, the Lead LFS (I'll call this one the Lead LFS) told me to contact (via a forum)their guy in malayasia who "hunts down" the apisotos. He gets the stock shipped to him in Mayalsia or he goes to Singapore or Hong Kong to check them out. From there, he ships them to Lead LFS. Now he would not be the only source for Sydney, but I have heard on Aussie apisto forum (where I met the fish minder) & also from at least one or two other LFS, that LFS's then get a apisto stock list from the Lead LFS. The Lead LFS get a lot of wild caught - but again, they come to him via German dealers/breeders.

Do you remember when I was going to get the mowlie (before the dehane)? The female was DOA, so I didn't buy. Well, the Malaysia guy even sent me a picture of my fish in QT in Malaysai, before they left for Australia. The other apisto low down I get from the local apisto forum is that there isn't any apisto quality around at the moment - so maybe the apisto experts see something I don't when I look at the fish.

Don't you dare to let him get into your head with regards to plants. I bet you that he doesn't even know who Jeff Senske is

I'm sure he doesn't. So, how do I deal with black hair algae? This is a low light, low tech tank. C02 is only by excel. Currently adding ferts & traces once a week. This is also the tank where I did the 3 day blackout. Other algae did seem to improve, but this hair algae remains. I packed in another 8 stems of hygro, to help take up any excess. Any suggestions?

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

How often do you add Excel? And how much ferts do you add weekly? Has the amount for both been stable over a few weeks? Did the fishload change dramatically? And, when you say hair, are you sure it is hair algae and not BBA?

Apistos: I guess it would be an interesting study to identify the routes these fish take until they are in the homes of the hobbyist worldwide.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Note to self re treatment of female for worms: Suggested treatment was either a pet's "All Wormer" or med containing active ingredient: Levamasole, mebendazole, trichlofon or niclosamide (crush tablet & soak live black worms then feed to infected fish).

Treated female on Sunday with All Wormer. By Tuesday, female still guarding & feeding (ie acting normally), but can clearly see worm protuding from anus. Treated her with live blackworms soaked in mebendazole.

Cheers
TW

How often do you add Excel?

Every 2nd day

And how much ferts do you add weekly?

1/4tspn KN03 & a pinch of KH2P04 on water change day. 5ml traces the next day

Has the amount for both been stable over a few weeks?

The ferts have been regular(once a week) but sometimes missed the excel.

Did the fish load change dramatically?

Well, my male bita is gone, plus I removed the pencil fish to increase fry survival. Tank contains mum, 5 fry & 2 otos.

And, when you say hair, are you sure it is hair algae and not BBA?

They are little black tufts of hair like stuff - plus my anubia has black spots.

I have a spare C02 set (everything except the bubble counter) that I bought on ebay for the elusive 4 foot tank (that I'm not allowed to set up) . I'm wondering if I connected it to this tank, would it help stabilize it. I don't want to make any drastic changes while the fry are so young & I also wonder about how ADA goes with C02. I have no intention of having anything other than easy plants & don't want to turn this into a high maintenance tank. Prepared to do that for the 4footer, but I like this one to be nice & easy. So, I'm unsure.

Would the C02 help, do you think?

Can you see the black hair algae (BBA?)? See my little girl looking on? Well, she's not really looking on at all - she looking at her babies

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

but can clearly see worm protuding ...

And you are sure it is not poop? Kinda gross, I have to say. Is there anything that could be done at that stage, like removing it with tweezers? I guess that may be dangerous as it could kill the worm and then cause an internal infection or something like that.

So sorry that you have all this trouble,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn, didn't see your last entry until after I posted.

Ferts sound good, except that I add about double of the traces (I have TMG and add about 10ml of it after water change in the 20QT, maybe a little more in the 29G once a week, about 20ml in the high tech 40G every other day, and 50ml in the 125G every other day).

I have black spots on my Anubias as well, and I am not able to tell why (in the 40).

I also add Excel only one a week to the 20 and 29, after water change.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A shot of 3 of the 5 fry.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

And you are sure it is not poop?

Yeah, I'm sure.

Is there anything that could be done at that stage, like removing it with tweezers?

I would worry about only breaking off the bits I can see. Plus you can't always see them. Sometimes I can only see a very, very slight bulge (nothing protruding) & sometimes I can just barely see what looks like a worm hanging out. It is probably too short to be able to grab with tweezers. I am hoping she is getting enough of the meds via the black worms to do the job. I'll have to investigate further re the tweezers idea. If it would help, I'd give it a try - but will wait a day or so to see if tonight's treatment has any effect. I don't want to do anything to stress her though, in case it scares her into munching on her fry. So far, she is a very good mum.

I have TMG and add about 10ml of it after water change in the 20QT

I only add 10ml to the 43.5G. Should I up that, considering that is what you add to your 20G?

Cheers
TW

Robyn, sorry to hear about the worms and the algae. It looks like BBA from the pic. Either way in a lowlight tank it's tough to put alot of ferts in the water to correct. I just don't think the plants suck up enough to take the organics out of the water. All of these will help:

More filtration
More water changes/gravel wash
less feeding/less fish
Purigen might help as well (absorbs alot of organics before they breakdown into ammonia)

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