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Robyn,

Although I have no idea about the meds that you got, I would suggest to dose for two weeks. Did they mention anything about a water change in between? I would say that if your fish by now just sits there, within 2 weeks he is either better or ...

About that scale: Are you sure it is a scale sticking out? And only one or a few? Does it look like he has been bitten? How could he have gotten an injury? Can it be that the scale is being pushed out from the inside? Is there a lump under that scale section?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Mr Bita is not going to make it & I'm incredibly sad about that. He is still alive, but he is on his side. Sometimes, he struggles back upright, but I can tell it is such hard work for the poor guy.

Can it be that the scale is being pushed out from the inside?

That is exactly what I am seeing.

Is there a lump under that scale section?

I think so.

Poor Mrs Bita. I feel sorry for her too. She is still in her breeding dress & it now looks like I will soon have no male for her.

I have redosed the tank one day early, & yes, I do a 50% water change between doses. When I decided on the 2nd dose, it was before he was on his side, but already he was struggling to keep upright & he couldn't swim properly (sort of dragged himself along).

With the cac, he is still upright, but keeping close to the bottom. With him, I hoped all along that I imagined a lump just in front of his anus. Tried to think he just was bloated & needed to poop. I should have acted earlier. I will probably have an easier time replacing Mr Cac (but I hope I don't need to) but don't think I'll be able to replace Mr Bita at all.

I'm sure Mr Bita will be dead by morning, but if Mr Cac is still alive, I might ring around even more vets to see if I can get a prescription for the actual meds that I need.

I'm really frustrated by this.

Cheers
TW

I am soo sorry Robyn

This is one of my greatest fears when it comes to fishies. Dying is one thing, but having a fish that one likes to have as a pair and then not getting the other one a new mate is really aweful.

Maybe it is time that you think about euthanizing Mr Bita. If you are most certain that he is not going to make it then all you do is to prolong your's and the fishe's suffering.

Again I raise the question: why two fish in two tanks at the same time? Just by chance?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Maybe it is time that you think about euthanizing Mr Bita

What you say makes sense & I do think he is past help, but what if I'm wrong. Unless LFS told big porky fibs, I won't be able to replace him. This will probably be one time I hope LFS did fib, I will certainly ask him to try to get me another male - even if I have to buy a pair. Perhaps it was only to make the sale, but he told me on sale that he would struggle to get more, as they never come in (you know, buy this fish now - otherwise you miss your big chance). I can't bring myself to euthanize him, just in case the meds help him over night.

I don't know why one sick in each tank, but I know Mr Cac, whilst symptom-less, had the lumpy & pinched tummy from the get go - just acted so much like a healthy fish, I let it slide on by.

Both tanks are pampered tanks. One is a 20G tank & the other 23G, not overstocked by any means. Both contained one pair of apisto, 2 otos & one of them also had one pencil fish. I don't overfeed & have one feed free day a week. I never miss a weekly water change & the ammonia nitrite are nil & nitrate is low. Both tanks have the ADA soil Ammozonia, which I specially put in there to give them the soft, acidic water they are meant to thrive in. The females both appear really strong & healthy and the fish have both bred several times (just no surviving fry to show for it).

I don't know what else I'm doing wrong.

I did have one LFS tell me once I was headed for trouble because I do weekly 50% water changes. He said this was too extreme & I should do weekly 10 or 20% changes. But everyone else here agrees with the 50% regimen ???

Cheers
TW

I did have one LFS tell me once I was headed for trouble because I do weekly 50% water changes.

Now, that is a bunch of bull ...

If your water temp is about the same, and you treat the water for chlorine/chloramine, then there is need to worry that 50% is too much. Just think about discus tanks where water changes 3 times per week of 50% or more is very common if one want to breed them.

Do you share certain tools between tanks, like algae sponges, nets, buckets to refill, and what not?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes all are shared. I don't have room to store additional 120L water change containers. I have 2 of them - one for removal of tank water & one for adding the fresh treated water. I share nets, but I hang them out to dry each time, which at least in the case of ich is meant to mean nothing can survive. Gravel vacs are also shared. Nothing in the community tank has died for a long time & they share all the same equipment too. Plus, both females appear fit & well, with good body shapes.

Cheers
TW

Ok,

I read the words between your lines, meaning "what are the chances that only the male got infected from sharing equipment?". And right you are, but there is of course a chance, albeit a small one. I try to only share equipment that is used to extract water from the tank, except the python for adding water into the tank. I have 4 nets and 4 sponges. When I move fish from one to the other tank I net them out with one net and add them to the other tank with the other net. I know it may be overboard, but this way I reduce a small chance even more.

Next guess: have they been in the same tank at any point in time, like the QT? Or the LFS tank (maybe even more important than the previous question)?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, I will get additional nets & algae pads & keep each separate. etc. I will have to stick with the same water containers, as I just have no storage room for others.

They have never been in the same tank. They came from separate LFS. Mr & Mrs Bita moved straight into their dedicated tank. No need to QT them, as the cycling fish were removed when they were added & they became the sole inhabitants.

Mr & Mrs Cac moved into the QT & QT eventually became their permanent home.

However, the otos in with Mr & Mrs Bita did QT with Mr & Mrs Cac, before moving across to their eventual permanent home with the Bitas. Both otos are still doing fine. When I added the pencil fish, I took a chance & didn't QT him, as his presence was urgently required to try to get the female not to beat up on the male (remember she was then the wife from hell)

I guess the nets, algae pads or even the otos could have transferred something & as a co-incidence, for some reason it was the male that had the lower immune system & couldn't fight what was transferred.

Cheers
TW

I know it is very unlikely that your fish or nets etc would transfer an illness to the male Apistos only. I assume it is as unlikely that this could have been achieved via food, like live food for your fry.

I guess we will never know for sure what happened.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yep, I guess I will never know. I fed the fry frozen baby brine shrimp only.

I found this quote from another apisto forum

I may be more cynical than most but certain generalities seem to apply to Apistogramma. One partner of a pair always dies if you have spawned them once and not salvaged any fry. One partner of a pair often kills the other because no replacements are available. Something they eat disagrees with them and some die. If you really like a certain species and lavish it with the best of everything, it will die.
These fish are perverse; sometimes those you ignore the most live the longest.

Seems true in my case

Cheers
TW

Sadly, Mr Bita was dead when I woke this morning.

Not a happy day in TW's world today.

Cheers
TW

Sorry to hear that Robyn

There is not much else I can say to console you, except maybe that I know how you feel - a mixture of sadness, anger, and confusion.

Hang in there honey,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo

I'm incredibly sad. Though he always caused me a lot of worry, he & his wife also gave me a lot of really interesting tank watching times.

I forgot to include the final part of the apisto quote from another forum I mentioned above, so here it is.

Just keep at it and sometimes you end up with a mess of fry from some rare and beautiful species. Getting there is half the fun and all the expense.

Well, that's what I'll do. I will keep trying to save the male cac & in the meantime, will firstly investigate if there is any chance of getting the widow a new husband.

Thanks for consolations.

Cheers
TW

You are very welcome Robyn,

We are not here only to bicker around about each others tanks but also to be there for each other in times like these.

And yes, getting info on availability of a new male is a good idea, I think to remember that you are looking for a new pair, right? That may be a good move. But it also may be worthwhile waiting a little so see how the female turns out, with regards to illness.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn,
Sorry to hear about the apisto. Some reason I missed this thread.

My Scapes

But it also may be worthwhile waiting a little so see how the female turns out, with regards to illness

Good point LF.

Hi tetratech welcome to this thread & thanks for your kind words.

The bad news (apart from the very worst news that my male bita died) is that it's not looking positive for a replacement. There are about 3-4 LFS in Sydney max, who sell apistos (other than rams & bolivans). My best lead was the LFS who sold him, but he has confirmed he does not expect anymore of this type. I've sent an email to the importer who was going to get me the dehane previously, but I haven't heard back. So far, all say no - they've never had one of these ever.

The good news. Phone calls to vets got me nowhere. So I thought I will just turn up on the vet's doorstep, with details of the med I need & throw myself at the vet's mercy. Yay, she gave me the prescription & the cac is still alive. I have done a 100% water change, so I'm not mixing the meds.

Do you think that I should add the female cac to the hospital tank, just to make sure?

EDIT: Mrs Bita has free swimming fry, so my poor sick male must have made a last valiant effort before I took him out of the tank. What should I do, what gives them the best chance. Leaving them with her? There are only the 2 otos & 1 pencil fish & the only place I have them would be in a breeding net in the same tank.

EDIT # 2: I've moved the pencil fish out. Now, all that's left is the otos. Otos are the only ones left to eat the fry, unless the female does this herself. I am going to put the night light back in & just suffer the resultant algae.

So, does anyone think I should:-

1. remove the otos
2. put the fry in a breeding net
3. medicate my female cac (just in case) BTW, she is not the mother I'm talking about, but the wife of the cac that I am medicating with metro.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'll ask the same question in the cichlid forum.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

1. remove the otos - I don't think that would be required. I doubt the Otos go after any fry, that is not their food source at all.

2. put the fry in a breeding net - Might not be a bad idea, this way you can feed them directly with baby brime shrimp and such. You probably will have to feed at least 3 times a day, 5 times is better (smaller quantities, of course). Make sure you prvide some hiding space in the net, like clippings from the Wisteria. This will help avoiding too much light in it as well.

3. medicate my female cac (just in case) BTW, she is not the mother I'm talking about, but the wife of the cac that I am medicating with metro. - I would say this is up to you, you know all the advantages and disadvantages of medicating when not required. I would say IF the med doesn't have any side effects then you could do it for the sake of your mind, even if the cac is otherwise just fine.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

QUICK EDIT: If you cannot get the fry with a net, try a turkey baster

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF,

Can't decide yet on points 2 & 3.

2. I can still target feed them with frozen BBS with my baby medicine dropper, whilst they are in the tank. I did this last time with success. If I remove them from the tank, when it's time to add them back - what if the female won't tolerate them. If they are there, she will tolerate them as her babies. I'll keep thinking this one through. Maybe I should do 50/50.

3. To medicate the female or not - as you say, my call. I just can't decide. I'll ponder this one a bit longer.

Cheers
TW

I haven't thought about a 50/50 option at all, that sounds like something to think about.

My first impression was that it is a good idea. How many fry do you think you have?

My second thought was more cautious (isn't it usually that way?). What if Apistos have some sense that if the fry start to dissapear that all is lost and they give up on the care?

Again, I don't know what is right or wrong, hopefully the experts in the Cichlid Forum can answer your thread there.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn, not to change the subject, but I was shocked to hear that Steven Irwn (The crocdile Hunter) has been killed in a fish related accident. Supposely a stingray barb to the heart killed him. I'm very sorry to hear that.

My Scapes

How many fry do you think you have?

Hard to say, I don't have a clear view of them & when they are on the gravel, they almost blend in. She has done better than last time, as I only ever saw 5. This time, I'd say at least 15 - which still isn't many. I think this is because she is young & inexperienced.


Cheers
TW

That is a good number, not too few but still managable.

Robyn and tetratech - Adam created a thread in the Recovery Room about the Crocodile hunter.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

tetratech, yes it is big news here & very sad. Everyone is talking about it.

Hard to believe, he was young & so very much alive. One of those "larger than life" type characters. I feel terribly sad for his wife & young children.

Apparently after he was stung he suffered cardiac arrest. Still very hard to believe it's true.

Cheers
TW

Well, bad news just keeps rolling in. I know not so bad in the scale of things when you think of Steve Irwin, but still, sad to say Mr Cac died today. I decided to medicate Mrs. Cac now. Whether or not I imagine it due to paranoia, I convinced myself I see a swelling & pinching in her abdomen. She is eating, swimming & what not, but I will medicate her for two weeks as a precaution. Even though she currently has no mate, I don't want to lose her as I like her a lot. If ever I see another pair with markings as nice as her dead mate, I will grab them - but no need to rush.

Now for my plan for Mrs Bita & her fry(at least 20). I sought advice here & on 2 other apisto forums. I'm moving mum & fry into a 1.5G tank, where it will be easier to target feed fry. Tank is small enough to make 50% water changes every other day not so hard. Their best chance of survival is:-

1. staying with mum
2. live baby brine shrimp
3. absolutely clean water

Wish me luck.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I wish you good luck
Sorry to hear that the other male died as well. Did he show similar symptoms?

Let me ask you a question about the fry? Why do you want to move the mother? I think water conditions would be much better in such a small tank without an adult fish. Further, I know that some animals eat their fry when threatened, at least this way they get the protein they need to make more babies later on when the threat is over. I don't know if this applies to Apistos, but it is worthwhile thinking about it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Right, mum is back in the main tank again. I wanted her with her fry, so she would continue to herd them together (they are so hard to see, unless in a bunch). Without her, they are spread all over & even in such a small tank, they are hard to see. There were around 20 before the move, but I could only catch 15. Mum had started gathering them in her mouth & moving them elsewhere (she wasn't eating them - at least not then). So there are 5 in the main tank still & I guess their chances may not be good.

The main reason I didn't want to separate mum from fry, is when as juveniles I add them back to her tank, she may reject them & attack. I don't know how long I will be allowed to have the baby tank running for. I had to make a deal with hubby for it to happen & it was only on a short term basis.

But during the move, she did become stressed & the breeding dress is gone. So I worried about what she would do & she was put back in her own tank.

Anyway, that's all for tonight.

EDIT: I feel very sorry for her right now, with someone taking all her babies away. She is not very happy.

Cheers
TW

I add them back to her tank, she may reject them & attack

Apistos will only take care of their fry for a short duration, after that they are on their own anyway.

The deals we have to make to get a lousy small tank up and running

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry to hear that the other male died as well. Did he show similar symptoms?

Sorry, forgot to answer this one. Not really, only that in his final days he wouldn't eat or swim around, so that was the same. The bita looked like he had something in his insides, maybe trying to burrow out. Was always shy - timid, hiding, jumpy & skittish even. The cac had the "not quite right" looking underbelly, but acting normally. Was confident, came right to the surface for food. Would attack an eyedropper I use to feed frozen brineshrimp (the bita was scared of the eyedropper). Only acted sick at the very end.

The deals we have to make to get a lousy small tank up and running

You're exactly right - more than you think. Get up & run is what I have to do, 'cause I have been slack not done much of that. So the price of the tank is to complete a set amount of running weekly, while the tank is running.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Sorry to hear about the loses.
How long did you have the two apistos that died?

My Scapes

Thanks tetratech

I got them around June & with the cac, he always had the abdomen shape problem - just acted perfectly healthy.

How is your girl doing. I've checked in at your log to see, but could see no news on her for a few days.



Cheers
TW

Well, do you know what my clever girl has done? She has put back on her party dress, rounded up about 7 fry I left in the tank & she is busy guarding them.

So, I have a chance now in 2 tanks.

Fingers crossed.

After this drama is over, I will get back on to the topic of plants - but for now I am immersed in this saga.

Cheers
TW

I will get back on to the topic of plants - but for now I am immersed in this saga

You are on the topic of plants, as they provide the natural cover for mother and fry

Robyn, do you happen to know how long it takes for the fry to reach a size where they can eat crushed flakes? I don't know that.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No, I will have to research.

Doing my water changes & whatnot now, so if it's not too late I will see what I can find, or else I will do it soon.

BTW, my female cac definitely has the abdomen problem now. It is swollen at around the place of her anus & caves in just in front of that. This was the same as for the male.

Here is a shot of her tonight in the hospital tank. It is blurry, but it serves it's purpose. You should be able to see her poor little shape. So far, she does not act sick - but I prepare myself now for her eventual loss.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Unbelievable

Seems almost as if you would have to start all over again. Albeit I can't see any issues in my Apistos, it makes me worried to see them die off like flies. And even more so as I am incapable to see damage to them the way you identify it. I had no clue that the shape of my male Triple-Red, the one that died after two days in the tank, was not right, and even now looking at the pictures of him I can't see anything wrong. Am I in denial?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Am I in denial?

I don't think you are. If you have looked & cannot see the funny shaped abdomen & observed for strange behaviour - what more can you do.

I was in denial though, as I never mentioned the problems here at FP or to anyone until too late. All the time I said to myself, I think I see a problem, but maybe it is nothing after all - so I did nothing.

Not sure now if I could have done anything anyway (except maybe put the Mrs Cac in the hospital tank before her abdomen swelled up). The metro doesn't seem to be doing anything, as her tummy shape is worse than yesterday.

The only one looking normal at this time is my female bita & as you might imagine, I am rather paranoid about apistos at the moment. The apisto fry is much smaller than platy fry - like a pin head with a tail. I put 15 in the holding tank last night & I don't know how many are still alive. I can see no more than 3 or so at anyone time, but they blend in so well in the gravel you can't see them unless they move. Without mum, they don't bunch together, which makes them harder to see. They also seem to swim less. I probably should have just left them with mum, so she can teach them to eat.

Cheers
TW

do you happen to know how long it takes for the fry to reach a size where they can eat crushed flakes

Ingo, still haven't done any internet or book based research, but asked on an apisto forum. This is quoted from part of an answer from someone who has bred apistos & actually has a 3 or 4 yr old Bita male (with no mate, but NFS & not same local anyway).

Feeding dry food can be difficult to control, it will take at least 2 months or more before the fry is big enough to have interest in normal dry food. Never stick with one single type of dry food as it does not provide a good balance in their diet so it's always best to supplement with BBS and other type of live/frozen food. It'll be at least 4 months before they're large enough to have a go at full size BS, but BS isn't as nutritional as BBS.

He has half offered to raise my fry for me & then give me back 50% - naturally still with no guarantee of success. I thinking of taking him up on this.

Cheers

Cheers
TW

The offer to raise my fry for me has been confirmed and he offers 50% of surving fry back to me. I haven't been in contact with him as long as I have with the FP guys, but he seems genuine. With my last back of fry, I had trouble sourcing frozen BBS - he told me where to go & even offered to give me some of his, if I really got stuck.

I have a very good feeling about him. He is very helpful & I believe trust worthy. I think it is very kind of him to offer to do this & I think I will trust him with the survivors in the holding tank, but leave mum with the ones in the tank.

He has also offered the services of his male to breed with my female in the future. What a kind man. I think I'm lucky to find someone that lives (reasonably) close to me prepared to do it.

What do you think?

Cheers
TW

Well if you don't feel like you can raise them on your own, I'd give them to someone who can, seeing as how you won't be having future hatchings(sorry about your losses ). If you feel like you can do it, by all means try your hand at it. If I ever have any fish breed for me I'll be intent on raising them myself.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matty

I can still do both. I have 6 or 7 in the main tank with mum & I'll leave them there.

I would be giving him the 15 that I removed & placed in the holding tank.

My female had a very small batch a little while ago & successfully guarded the last fry for 23 days before it disappeared - so me keeping them by no means guarantees the survial, but I would have 7 to try it out.

If my male was alive, I wouldn't consider it at all - but I see it as giving me a better chance for continuing with this fish, if I manage to get some survivors from this final batch. It will be my only real guarantee of a perfect match as I don't know the local of my bita. LFS seller said Tefe, but several reliable sources have said no, it's from Peru, but local in Peru unknown.

I'll think about it another hour before I respond, but I think I will do it.

Cheers
TW

I'll think about it another hour before I respond

Well, more than an hour has gone by, did you make a move?

How would the transfer of the fry work out? If it is technically possible and if they guy seems honest about his intentions then I would say you should go for it. It saves you a lot of headaches.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hasn't happened yet, but we've agreed it will. Sad not to raise them myself, but I think this gives them the best chance. Plus I can have a go with the 5 or 6 still in the tank.

I didn't know that live BBS is only good for 24 hrs. That means unless I hatch my own, a 90 minute drive daily to pick it up. After striking yet a further deal with hubby, I am allowed to set up a small tank for the brine shrimp

On a sad note, my lovely little cac girl was dead when I got home tonight. . She was so much smaller than the male, she didn't last long at all once she had the swelling. I wonder if the meds killed her, but I guess not, as her abdomen was the same as her husband's. I wish some of her fry had made it, but she lost hers in 7 days.

I don't know what do with some java moss balls that I put in the hospital tank with the sick fish - to make them not feel so exposed. I want to use them again - but how to be sure that no meds or other bad things are attached. Can plants be sterilized. Can I put them in a bucket with some all purpose meds to kill anything off? Or, what else?

Cheers

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I think the most common thing we had to say to you in the last few days was "I am so sorry". Let's hope that this is the last time we have to do so for a while: I am so sorry

Did anyone, so far, identify what exactly killed your fish? Maybe the guy who takes the fry?

Yeah, BBS expire so fast. That is one of the reasons why I have mixed emotions on having fry from my Apistos. I is a lot of effort.

So - What is a Java Moss Ball? Is it a Moss Ball, which actually is an algae, or is it Java Moss rolled up by yourself into a ball shape?

And:

After striking yet a further deal with hubby, I am allowed to set up a small tank for the brine shrimp

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Did anyone, so far, identify what exactly killed your fish? Maybe the guy who takes the fry?

He has now just left the house & taken the fry with him, except for the ones left in the main tank.

I explained to him the lump on my male, that looked like something pushing outwards from his insides. He said that this would have been TB & is common with Bitas. He said that it is only treatable when no symptoms. By the time the lump was showing, it was probably too late. In any case, metro was not the right treatment for TB.

He looked at my female Bita & he pointed out to me the very beginnings of the abdomen lump thing on her as well. He said it is parasitic worms & again metro is not the right thing. He gave me the names of some meds, but also said I can use pet all wormer's (the tabs for dogs or cats). What I do is crush a tablet & dissolve it in a small container of tank water. Then add a couple of black worms (just enough for her to eat) & then. The black worms will start to absorb the medication & then I feed the worms to the female one by one. That way, I am target medicating her, without treating the fry or messing up the ADA soil with meds. He said she should be treatable as it is very early stages. He said it is very common with apistos & metro would not have helped - thus the death of the cacs.

I hope that I can fix this & I don't have yet another death. Don't think I could handle that right now, as it has been just one after the other since Monday. The only good thing has been the fry & I really hope this guy can raise them.

He was really nice & spent a couple of hours here, just talking tanks & setting up my brine shrimp hatchery.

He is going to give me picture updates of the fry from time to time.

Cheers
TW

What is a Java Moss Ball

Forgot to answer that. It is java moss, formed into a ball shape, then tied to fishing line & weight on the bottom. LFS have the fishing line quite long so they float, but I have shortened all the fishing line, so the balls sit just slightly above the gravel. They look like bushes on the aquarium floor & I quite liked them. The java moss was contained within netting & could easily be removed at each water change, so I could clean them or trim them, & then I would arrange a little group of them together (say 3 or 4 in a bunch in the corner). They did not look at all like java moss balls at all anymore, but like a little hedge of bunch of bushy moss.

How can I make sure they are ok to go back in the tank. I have them in a bucket outside at the moment.

Cheers
TW

He said it is very common with apistos

I had no idea that Apistos are such sensitive fishies, after all, my viejita gave me no troubles ever. Now I will always look at them thinking they won't be around much longer.

I would leave the moss for a day in a bucket, change the water twice and always add a good dosage of dechlor. I think that would be enough. Maybe swooshing the balls through the water will help to make sure that even the inside gets flushed.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

On the bright side - it may just be common here for this sickness. We don't get much in the way of apistos & maybe the quality we get isn't so good as you get there in the US, Europe or UK. It is another one of those catch 22's, where LFS don't stock apistos because the demand isn't there. Many LFS here don't know what apistos are - I have had to explain what they are to many LFS when I ask can they get some in for me. Your viejita have been going strong for such a long time, so please don't let my mishaps worry you. Every now & then, just look at the underbelly - but don't stress over it. With my problems, the swelling is the anus, which houses the worm - except for the Bita, which now seems had TB.

Anyway, he seems knowledgeable. He has been keeping & breeding apistos for 10 years - but that's 10 years of recognising what can go wrong in AUS, not US.

If all goes well, I should get my 50% share of survivors in December, before he goes away on holiday.

Cheers
TW

I should get my 50% share of survivors in December, before he goes away on holiday

Let's keep our fingers crossed that there are a few survivors

BTW, have you guys identified what will happen if there is an odd number of survivors?

Apistos US vs. AUS: didn't we at some point discuss that both our stocks are most likely from Germany, and as such carry the same risks?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I usually see them described as either "German bred" or "wild caught". Even so, would there be more than one German breeder? Would some breeders be better than others? Would some specimens be better than others? Would the best specimens go to the countries where the demand is greater?

I don't know - I'm just wondering these things myself.

I managed to get her to eat 5 live black worms that had been soaked in an all-wormer solution. I wondered if she'd eat them & now, the worrier that I am, I hope the medication itself doesn't kill her.

have you guys identified what will happen if there is an odd number of survivors

No, I'll leave it up to him to let me know my share. Apparently 2 have already gone. One died in the bag during transport & one died on the first night. Hope the rest make it.

I know I still have 5 fry in my tank & I've had my 1st batch of BBS hatch in my hatchery. Fry are still tiny, but have plumped up quite a bit & had little pink belly's tonight after feeding on the BBS. These guys seem to be eating better on the live stuff than on the previous fry I was feeding frozen BBS. They seem to like the hatchery idea

Sort of ruins the look of the tank.

This fish minder also told me I have black hair algae in the tank & blamed it on too many nutrients. Maybe with the ADA soil, I don't need to fertiliser at all - or maybe only every 2nd week.

Any suggestions of how you get rid of this algae?

Cheers
TW

Some Answers:

"Even so, would there be more than one German breeder?" - I am sure we have more than one guy in his basement over there in the old country.

"Would some breeders be better than others?" - For sure

"Would some specimens be better than others?" - Of course

"Would the best specimens go to the countries where the demand is greater?" - Now that is a good questions. If this would be so, would that mean that the "collector" for Australia would have to hunt down the fish in Germany? I don't think so

"...but have plumped up quite a bit & had little pink belly's tonight after feeding on the BBS." - That is great

"This fish minder also told me I have black hair algae in the tank & blamed it on too many nutrients. Maybe with the ADA soil, I don't need to fertiliser at all - or maybe only every 2nd week." - He may know his Apistos, but not planted tanks. Don't you dare to let him get into your head with regards to plants. I bet you that he doesn't even know who Jeff Senske is

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Now that is a good questions. If this would be so, would that mean that the "collector" for Australia would have to hunt down the fish in Germany? I don't think so

Well, I don't think he actually has to do that - but ..... When I wanted the dehane, the Lead LFS (I'll call this one the Lead LFS) told me to contact (via a forum)their guy in malayasia who "hunts down" the apisotos. He gets the stock shipped to him in Mayalsia or he goes to Singapore or Hong Kong to check them out. From there, he ships them to Lead LFS. Now he would not be the only source for Sydney, but I have heard on Aussie apisto forum (where I met the fish minder) & also from at least one or two other LFS, that LFS's then get a apisto stock list from the Lead LFS. The Lead LFS get a lot of wild caught - but again, they come to him via German dealers/breeders.

Do you remember when I was going to get the mowlie (before the dehane)? The female was DOA, so I didn't buy. Well, the Malaysia guy even sent me a picture of my fish in QT in Malaysai, before they left for Australia. The other apisto low down I get from the local apisto forum is that there isn't any apisto quality around at the moment - so maybe the apisto experts see something I don't when I look at the fish.

Don't you dare to let him get into your head with regards to plants. I bet you that he doesn't even know who Jeff Senske is

I'm sure he doesn't. So, how do I deal with black hair algae? This is a low light, low tech tank. C02 is only by excel. Currently adding ferts & traces once a week. This is also the tank where I did the 3 day blackout. Other algae did seem to improve, but this hair algae remains. I packed in another 8 stems of hygro, to help take up any excess. Any suggestions?

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

How often do you add Excel? And how much ferts do you add weekly? Has the amount for both been stable over a few weeks? Did the fishload change dramatically? And, when you say hair, are you sure it is hair algae and not BBA?

Apistos: I guess it would be an interesting study to identify the routes these fish take until they are in the homes of the hobbyist worldwide.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Note to self re treatment of female for worms: Suggested treatment was either a pet's "All Wormer" or med containing active ingredient: Levamasole, mebendazole, trichlofon or niclosamide (crush tablet & soak live black worms then feed to infected fish).

Treated female on Sunday with All Wormer. By Tuesday, female still guarding & feeding (ie acting normally), but can clearly see worm protuding from anus. Treated her with live blackworms soaked in mebendazole.

Cheers
TW

How often do you add Excel?

Every 2nd day

And how much ferts do you add weekly?

1/4tspn KN03 & a pinch of KH2P04 on water change day. 5ml traces the next day

Has the amount for both been stable over a few weeks?

The ferts have been regular(once a week) but sometimes missed the excel.

Did the fish load change dramatically?

Well, my male bita is gone, plus I removed the pencil fish to increase fry survival. Tank contains mum, 5 fry & 2 otos.

And, when you say hair, are you sure it is hair algae and not BBA?

They are little black tufts of hair like stuff - plus my anubia has black spots.

I have a spare C02 set (everything except the bubble counter) that I bought on ebay for the elusive 4 foot tank (that I'm not allowed to set up) . I'm wondering if I connected it to this tank, would it help stabilize it. I don't want to make any drastic changes while the fry are so young & I also wonder about how ADA goes with C02. I have no intention of having anything other than easy plants & don't want to turn this into a high maintenance tank. Prepared to do that for the 4footer, but I like this one to be nice & easy. So, I'm unsure.

Would the C02 help, do you think?

Can you see the black hair algae (BBA?)? See my little girl looking on? Well, she's not really looking on at all - she looking at her babies

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

but can clearly see worm protuding ...

And you are sure it is not poop? Kinda gross, I have to say. Is there anything that could be done at that stage, like removing it with tweezers? I guess that may be dangerous as it could kill the worm and then cause an internal infection or something like that.

So sorry that you have all this trouble,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Robyn, didn't see your last entry until after I posted.

Ferts sound good, except that I add about double of the traces (I have TMG and add about 10ml of it after water change in the 20QT, maybe a little more in the 29G once a week, about 20ml in the high tech 40G every other day, and 50ml in the 125G every other day).

I have black spots on my Anubias as well, and I am not able to tell why (in the 40).

I also add Excel only one a week to the 20 and 29, after water change.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A shot of 3 of the 5 fry.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

And you are sure it is not poop?

Yeah, I'm sure.

Is there anything that could be done at that stage, like removing it with tweezers?

I would worry about only breaking off the bits I can see. Plus you can't always see them. Sometimes I can only see a very, very slight bulge (nothing protruding) & sometimes I can just barely see what looks like a worm hanging out. It is probably too short to be able to grab with tweezers. I am hoping she is getting enough of the meds via the black worms to do the job. I'll have to investigate further re the tweezers idea. If it would help, I'd give it a try - but will wait a day or so to see if tonight's treatment has any effect. I don't want to do anything to stress her though, in case it scares her into munching on her fry. So far, she is a very good mum.

I have TMG and add about 10ml of it after water change in the 20QT

I only add 10ml to the 43.5G. Should I up that, considering that is what you add to your 20G?

Cheers
TW

Robyn, sorry to hear about the worms and the algae. It looks like BBA from the pic. Either way in a lowlight tank it's tough to put alot of ferts in the water to correct. I just don't think the plants suck up enough to take the organics out of the water. All of these will help:

More filtration
More water changes/gravel wash
less feeding/less fish
Purigen might help as well (absorbs alot of organics before they breakdown into ammonia)

My Scapes

I can't believe it. I think I lost 4 of the fry during water change. I know I didn't siphon them out, I checked the water carefully, over & over again before I tipped it out. I know at the very least, I caused mum & fry to separate. At one stage after the fresh water was in the tank, I saw 2 fry out on their own. For a long time, mum did not come out again & now that she has, there is only 1 fry with her. I've been doing 50% water changes every 2nd day since the fry were born, so I think I may have been careless & too vigorous & damaged them tonight. She seems more nervous of me since the water change. I hope she finds some more survivors - they were doing really well.

Thanks tetratech for the advice. I have recently added purigen, so I hope it helps. The tank is very fish light anyway - 1 apisto with fry (either 5 or 1) plus 2 otos & feeding is fairly minimum - although with the fry there is extra waste for uneaten food - but that's why I'm doing the more frequent water changes.

Anyway, here is today's tank picture - which includes a view of the brine shrimp hatchery - I know spoils the look, but my fry love it.

EDIT: She has found another, so she appears to have 2 surviving fry.

Cheers,

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Well, I am back to square one in this tank. The only survivors are 2 otos, that have been around for quite a while now. The last fry died Monday & the female died Tuesday. On examining her, clearly 2 thin red worms were hanging out of her. They came out easily with tweezers, so I wonder if I should have done that while she was alive or if that would just have been stressful for her. I don't know why the worm treatment didn't work. Just to top it all off, my fish fry minder tells me the babies all died off one by one for him too.

I have done a 50% water change each day since the female's death & will do the same tonight & tomorrow. I'm going to have a look at some apistos that come out of a 2 week QT with LFS on the weekend. He apparently has a female P.T.Nigeria Red, so she is on my shopping list to go with the male I already have.

Cheers
TW

IMO it's usually a good idea to give some time before getting fish again after something like this. Realistically it should be at least a month to clear out any possible parasites. I'd rather give it longer. Parasites can't live long without fish, but any eggs or larvae might be able to live in the tank for a while. Just my opinion.

Sorry bout the losses.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty

I was hoping the frequent water changes would do it, but in any case, the P.T. Nigeria Red male is in a separate tank & the female is going in there.

If I do find an apisto pair I like, I will temporarily house them elsewhere for a month.

What about the otos that remain in the tank - are they OK to stay where they are? From what you say, a fish in the tank (oto) could mean the parasites survive? I doubt there are any eggs or larvae, as the male died 2 weeks previously - unless they would be oto eggs. Or do you mean parasite eggs?

Cheers
TW

I meant parasite eggs. I would think that if the otos were going to get them they would have already. Apistos, even different types, are so similar that any parasite that targets them specifically would probably target all of them, meaning not species specific, but might not want to target otos(kind of like how some fish seem immune to ich, and some are very e to it). Could be that the apistos were injestingg the parasite eggs or larvae in something(like poo), that the otos won't touch. I'm no pro on this though. Diseases and parasites and stuff aren't my specialty. If your otos up and die with the same symptoms then I'd recomend waiting another month after them.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty, your advice seems very sound to me. Will the 2 otos be enough to keep the tank cycled during this waiting period? As you know, they are very little.

Cheers
TW

If you feed them it should stay cycled, but at a very low bioload. You'll just want to stock real slow when you start up again.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Sorry to hear about the cichlids Robyn. I know it's not always practical, but if your going to be keeping alot of cichlids that are e these parasites a UV might be a really good investment. Unfortunately during the acclimation process the fish get's stressed and their immune systems are compromised and this is when the process starts with the parasites taking over. If a UV is in the tank the fish don't have alot to battle when their stress levels go up and their immune systems go down.

I also think many of these fish have the parasites when purchased and the stress of acclimation makes them come out. I think ordinary the fishes immune system can deal with it. I used to lose about 50% of my cardinal tetras before the UV and now with it I barely lose any. Same thing can be said for the sensitive blue ram..

My Scapes

Matty, my otos have never eaten any of the wafers that I add (at least, I don't see them eat it). They eat cucumber & algae only, from what I observe. But I might just add 1/2 a wafer a day or every 2nd day, just to keep things turning around in there.

Tetratech, I started making enquirers about the UV and found some really low prices & some really hight prices. Two points may decide me not to go ahead, the main one being that the UV can't be run on my "wet & dry trickle" filter. (Another reason not to buy these all-in-one aquarium kits.) I'd have to but another filter to run it.

The other is that LFS told me that they are great & help heaps with diseases such as white spot, velvet & those types of things, but not internal parasites or worm type problems. This is because these things are inside the fish & therefore, do not pass through the UV to be killed off. It could have effect on any worm or parasite laid in the water somewhere, but still only if they passed through the UV.

Do you think he's got this right?

Cheers
TW

Further update on UV investigations. Another LFS said it will help with parasites, but meaning parasites in the water. So while it won't help with parasites already within a fish, it would help stop that spreading to another fish, who is parasite free. On that theory, if I get one now, it should clear the water of nasties before I get a new Apisto resident pair.

tetratech, what wattage UV do you have in your tank?

They claim to help with algae & this tank has a slight algae problem, so that would be a good side affect too.

Apparently a pump or small filter of only around $40 could run the UV, so that's not as bad as I thought.

One oto has made a liar out of me. Never eaten these wafers before, but he has stumbled onto one, & since then, has not left it alone. He's either not sharing with his other oto friend, or else that one still hasn't realised they are food.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

First of all, sorry again about all the apisto troules you are having.

Next, until tetratech can be more specific, the wattage of the UV is one thing, but there is also the flow rate that influences what the UV will actually kill. Depending on the speed with which water goes through it it is more active against parasites or algae. So don't rush to buy one until the right wattage and flow rate is defined.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The other is that LFS told me that they are great & help heaps with diseases such as white spot, velvet & those types of things, but not internal parasites or worm type problems. This is because these things are inside the fish & therefore, do not pass through the UV to be killed off. It could have effect on any worm or parasite laid in the water somewhere, but still only if they passed through the UV.

Although this LFS is not incorrect they are missing the bigger picture. Why do perfectly healthy fish get ich after a rapid water temperture change? Where did the ich come from? the ich parasite is dormant inside some very healthy fish but the fish is unaffected if it's stress levels are kept within a normal range. (BTW - You could keep a fish in quarantine for a year and it may still be a carrier of the ich parasite when you put it in your main tank). The UV since it has the ability to kill many things in the water creates a less stressful environment when the fish are put in. This allows the fishes immune system to keep the internal parasite, ich, etc suppressed and dormant.

Further update on UV investigations. Another LFS said it will help with parasites, but meaning parasites in the water. So while it won't help with parasites already within a fish, it would help stop that spreading to another fish, who is parasite free. On that theory, if I get one now, it should clear the water of nasties before I get a new Apisto resident pair.

This goes hand in hand with the first point I made. If it clears the water of all kinds of stress-related nasties the fishes immune system will probably keep the parasites it might have suppressed.

Next, until tetratech can be more specific, the wattage of the UV is one thing, but there is also the flow rate that influences what the UV will actually kill. Depending on the speed with which water goes through it it is more active against parasites or algae. So don't rush to buy one until the right wattage and flow rate is defined.

Bascially a slower flow rate will kill parasites and a quicker one will only kill algae spores.
If you have the wet/dry trickle (Robyn, when you say that I always think you have a sump under the tank) but you actually have an eclipse above the tank in the hood. So if that's the case you would have to get a powerhead to run the UV. This could be hidden behind or below the tank. It's pretty easy to get a powerhead that will have a suitable flow.

This is not black and white. This is kinda like EI. It's not a perfect target. If the the rate is within range it will still kill parasites but it might take more passes through the UV. The stronger the UV the quicker the flow could be. My UV is the 9watt coralife. Costs me about $70usd. My eheim is rated to only 185gph, plus I have the flow at only 3/4 full, my return is about 3.5 feet below the top of the tank and the UV itself slows down flow, so you could see I'm not dealing with alot of flow anyway.

You have to understand, IMO the UV kills alot of things in the water not just parasites that will stress fish, but also bacteria and other nasties that stress fish.


My Scapes

First of all, sorry again about all the apisto troubles you are having.

Thanks LF, I guess you've read that none now survive - not even the fry with the fish minder.

Re: the UV. I know that the slower the flow the better, & I'm figuring the highest watt that I can afford too. The models I'm looking at all list the most desirable flow rate for 99% kill - so I'll make sure of matching that up. I've also been told to go for one rated for at least double the water volume that I have.

Otherwise, I'll have to sneak it in one night, after he's gone to bed.

Cheers
TW

Hi tetratech,

We must have been posting at more or less the same time, with you posting first. Thanks heaps for all the info. I'll do some more investigating tomorrow & maybe even purchase one. $70USD is cheap. For one that's said to kill parasites (as well as algae) I'm looking at around $300. The wattage I'm looking at also seems ok. Minimum of 11 watts - & some are more.

Do you run yours 24/7. Some people I have spoken to say they only run it for say 2 days a week (set by a timer). The reasoning for running it this way (according to them) is that by running 24/7, the fish do not build up an immune system. By running it 2 days a week, they say the parasites are kept down, but the fish does build up an immune system by minimal exposure.

If you have the wet/dry trickle (Robyn, when you say that I always think you have a sump under the tank) but you actually have an eclipse above the tank in the hood.

Wet & Dry Trickle Filter is what the manufacturers of the tank (AquaOne) call the filter. Anyway, it is just another of the reasons why I probably wouldn't buy this type of tank again. Obviously I am a slow learner - as I have 3 of them

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Sorry to hear about all the troubles with this tank. Hopefully everything settles down nicely.

I think the UV would be a great idea if you can afford everything. I would however still wait a month or two before adding any new fish. The UV will only kill things in the water column so any cysts, eggs, etc in the gravel or on the plants will still need to die off.

Just take it slow and you should be fine. Good Luck

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks Rick, that's all good advice.

Well, it's ordered, as they didn't have it in stock, so I can't go ahead with the plant to sneak it in today. It's a DeBarry Aqua-UV Electronic UV, 11 watt. Technical data says max flow rate should 145 g/ph. The pump LFS say I should use, I was a little worried about. I looked up on the Web site at home & it was rated as 200 g/ph & I asked LFS to give me a slower pump, but here's what they said. Does it makes sense? LFS tell me that if my purpose was just to put the pump in the tank to create water flow/movement - like you do in a marine tank - that's when it will be 200g/ph. They say if the pump is being used to force water up & out of the tank & then needs to pump the water upwards again back into the tank, the force of gravity will cause the flow rate to be slowed considerably the rate would be back down to at least 145 GP/hr or less. They believe that if I went to the lower rated pump, it would not be strong enough to get the water back up & into the tank. He said that if I found the pump he recommends exceeds my target flow rate, he will swap it over for me, even though I will have used it. But, how could I even tell the flow rate, once it's all connected up?

Does this sound right? It sort of makes sense to me, but I'm spending quite a bit of money here & don't want it to be wasted.

Comments appreciated.

Cheers
TW

Well he's not entirely giving you BS, but I don't personally think that 55 gph will be knocked off by the water moving up 6 inches. If the pump were rated at 150 or even 175, that might be ok with me, but I think 200gph might be pushing it. I don't think you will lose that much flow. My piddly little 85 gph pump for my top off unit can push water up a full foot. Sumfin to think about anyways. Let's see what others think.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty, from the top of the UV unit to the top of the tank will be more than 24 inches. Do you think that will make a difference?

But yes, I agree more opinions would be good.

EDIT: Some other options from the same brand are:-

120 gph which has a flow control adjustment built into the pump

152 gph - does not have flow control adjustment

Cheers
TW

That might make a difference. If the pump comes with a head chart that would be useful. I'm not sure. That might be 2 feet of head, maybe even more, which would make a significant difference on a powerhead. I'm not sure how much though. Might be 55gph, could be more or less. What type of pump was he recommending? Maybe we can look up the head rating on the web.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Here is a link, but it is for the US site. I am assuming the only difference will be the voltage (we are 240V). The model he is recommending is model 480. The other two I mentioned are models 360 & 302[link]. http://www.alabamahydroponics.com/GH/store/pumps/viaaquapumps.htm[/link] Click on additional information for specifications for each model.

I don't really know what maximum head means or head rating means.

I found this one available on line & thought it looked good.


Eheim Compact 600 A$39.10
Max. flow 600 litres per hour (158.5 gph)
Min. flow 150 litres per hour (39 gph)
Max. head 1.3 mt (just over 4ft)
11 watt
Length 65mm x Width 45mm x Height 84mm
Flow control
Fits 12mm hose
Made in EU
3 Year Warranty


Eheim Compact 1000 A$48.55
Max. flow 1000 litres per hour (264Gph)
Min. flow 150 litres per hour (39gph)
Max. head 2.0 mt (6.56168 ft)
23 watt
Length 78mm x Width 54mm x Height 94mm
Flow control
Fits 16mm hose
Made in EU
3 Year Warranty

LFS told me about this one too, but said it had been out of stock for over a month & he didn't know when he could get. If I can order it on line, what do you think of this one. Or do you think the Via Aqua is ok. It's cheaper - but not really that much.

Thanks

Cheers
TW

Well I've brushed up on my head calculations and it appears that since you are not pumping far in NET vertical distance(above the water line), you will not have any vertical head pressure. This is what I was afraid of. However, for every L bend you are supposed to add 1 foot of head pressure. This is what will really reduce the flow for you.

There is a way to go about being scientifical and measure the exact output of the pump with the attachments and UV sterilizer. Simply see how long it will take it to fill a gallon jug. Then convert it. Easy. Please don't get the UV sterilizer wet doing these tests. I can see it getting messy, and that would be bad.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks Matty, I would assume I will have 2 L bends (one where the water leaves the tank & one where the water returns to the tank - so 2ft of head pressure. Both the Eheim ones give more way more than that & have the benefit that when I test it all, I can adjust the flow.

I think I will order the Eheim Compact 1000, as the 600 is on the border line & if I do lose too much pressure, I can't up it.

Thanks for all your help on this.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I just wanted to let you know that I follow the discussion about UVs, but I have no knowledge of them other than the part that I already contributed.

No matter what, I hope it will work out for you in the end,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF, with tetratech's & matty's help, the UV is well under way. I already have the Eheim pump from my online order, & I'm waiting for LFS to tell me the UV itself has come in.

Cheers
TW

Thanks LF, with tetratech's & matty's help, the UV is well under way. I already have the Eheim pump from my online order, & I'm waiting for LFS to tell me the UV itself has come in.

Robyn good look with the UV. I really think it's a wise investment. There's a reason the vast majority of saltwater enthusiasts have one to protect their sensitive expensive fish (I think Matty will atest to that).

Also if you setup changes and you have a cansister filter on one of your future tanks the UV could be hooked up inline on the return side of the filter.

Another thing too, your water will look a little clearer, especially if you look through it from the side.

My Scapes

Thanks tetratech, tell me, how long do you run your UV? Do you run your UV 24/7 or only for part of the day or part of the week?

This tank is getting a fairly good quality UV. I've also ordered a cheapy for the 20G tank - so I'll see how that goes too.

Anyway, here is this weeks full shot. This tank continues to have a bit of an algae problem. I changed the back of the tank a bit. The right corner now has been cleared of the stem plants, so that the crypt can be better seen. Fairly boring fishwise in this tank, with only the 2 otos as residents.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Tank looks good, even with the algae problem. The crypt in the right back really looks nice and healthy.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

There's a reason the vast majority of saltwater enthusiasts have one to protect their sensitive expensive fish (I think Matty will atest to that).

Yep, a lot of people do use them, great for tangs who are very susceptible to ich and other parasites. They are not found very often on a reef tank, though. There's lots of little microorganisms running around in a reef tank that you want to keep alive for the benefit of the inverts. Some people run them on reef setups anyways, but they usually value their fish more than the corals.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The crypt in the right back really looks nice and healthy.

Thanks LF, I've had this crypt since almost the beginning of my 1st planted tank. It is planted in a rock of some sort. It started out in the 43.5G, but it didn't really fit there, so I moved it to this tank when I first started it up. It was always overshadowed by the wisteria, so it was almost impossible to see. It is nice & healthy looking, so I decided to give it more space to shine.

Matty, glad you mentioned the issue of UV's with reef tanks. I was wondering whether I should convince hubby to get one for his, but I won't now.

BTW, does anyone have any thoughts about whether I should run the UV 24/7 or run it on some sort of timing sequence?

Cheers
TW

does anyone have any thoughts about whether I should run the UV 24/7 or run it on some sort of timing sequence?

I run mine 24/7. I have seen no disadvantage to doing so and it's pretty much set it and forget it (except a bulb change every year). I've heard by some that fish living in UV all the time, wouldn't have built up resistance to disease if they are moved to a non-UV tank, but I don't know if that's accurate.

My Scapes

Hi,
I got in a little bit late, but all great information.
This was posted on the Technicial Tinkering forum:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/631.1.htm?5#

Yes, run it 24/7. Yes, it is pretty much set and forget
however, if it is not in the output of the tank filter,
then you need to tear down the UV light every month or
so (depending upon how occupied, and dirty the tank is)
to clean the water passages around the bulb. They will
"gum up" and form a sheet of dirt on the glass sleeve
reducing, or preventing the UV light from contacting the
water. Many UV lights come with a mechanism that you
use to clean the bulb while it is running. On others, you
have to disassemble the bulb and clean the glass.

If you disassemble the UV light, DO NOT ever, touch the
actual UV light bulb. It is made of silica and the body
oil on your hands and fingers will stick to the bulb.
Then, when it is turned on, the oils concentrate the
heat and the silica softens and the bulb "melts" and
sags into a distorted shape. This can wedge the bulb
within the sleeve, and prevent its removal. The old
movie projectors had the same problem as to the new
LCD projection TVs .. Don't touch the bulb.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Darn - there's always a problem

Instead of a pump, would it work attached to an internal filter - probably not I'm guessing.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,,
You are right, the filter ideally would be a canister
filter and the output would go through the UV filter
next on the way back to the tank.
Many would use a power head to force the water out of the
tank, through the UV filter, and then back to the tank.
In that case they prefilter the intake to the power head
with a sponge wrapped around the intake to remove the
gross stuff, but still, the smaller stuff can get through.
It's the small stuff that hits the glass sleeve that is
hot and being cooled by the passing water and on contact
will stick to the hot glass sleeve and eventually form
a coating that progressively gets thicker and thicker
eventually decreasing the light passing through and
contacting the water.

These things are terrific for killing off parasites,
disease, and algae but they do have drawbacks, namely
expense (initial and replacement bulb costs), and
maintenance.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Yes, run it 24/7. Yes, it is pretty much set and forget
however, if it is not in the output of the tank filter,
then you need to tear down the UV light every month or
so (depending upon how occupied, and dirty the tank is)
to clean the water passages around the bulb. They will
"gum up" and form a sheet of dirt on the glass sleeve
reducing, or preventing the UV light from contacting the
water. Many UV lights come with a mechanism that you
use to clean the bulb while it is running. On others, you
have to disassemble the bulb and clean the glass.

Well sounds like an alarmist view and not really necessary for the tank we are talking about. In a planted tank like Robyn's most of the filtration is in the tank in the form of bacteria and of course the plants. It isn't a big fish, big waste murky water-type situation that would have such an effect on UV operation. Sure it will be need to be cleaned from time to time whether it's running through the output of a canister or through a powerhead. Mines been running about 11 months without a problem and I clean my cansister out only 3 times a year. As I said most of the filtration is in the tank. We aren't talking big fish we are talking little fish in pretty good water conditions thanks to the plants. Many of the articles and such on the Internet concerning equipment no not take into account planted aquaria. Things are different in this type of setup in the same way things are different in a reef tank with lots of live rock. This of course is my opinion. Anyone else want to chime in?



My Scapes

Thanks Frank & tetratech. LFS rang to say my UV has arrive, so I went there after work today. Only to get there to find that somewhere on my train trip home my wallet had gone missing. I had it to get through the ticket barrier, but it was not in my bag when I arrived at the shop. Such a nuisance, had to cancel all my cards & tomorrow I will need to do something about my licence.

Anyway, I will see if I can pick up the UV tomorrow now. When I go I will talk to them about the prefiltering issues & see if they can come up with anything to help keep the UV cleaner. At the very least, I'll ask them to help me understand about the "sponge wrapped around the intake". tetratech is right that the water should stay fairly clean - only 2 otos & 2 small apistos, who aren't there yet. The tank gets 50% water change weekly & fish are fed a small amount 6 days a week.

Cheers
TW

Hi,
Actually, I'd have preferred a "worst case point of view"
instead of an "alarmist point of view."

Probably, in the conditions that "we" maintain our planted
tanks, you are correct.

However, all of our readers do not always adhere to
our levels of activity and energy when it comes to
their tanks. Honestly, too many times
I've seen folks think a UV filter is THE answer to what
ails a tank. They set them up under less than ideal
conditions, and forget about them until one day they notice
that the light is no longer burning, and most
don't remember when it was last lighted.
Just saying the maintenance is something that needs to
be done, and the interval is, of course dependent upon
the environment that it is placed in.

Robyn, If you are using a power head to run the UV filter,
chances are you have it suspended with the tapered end
(intake) submerged in the tank and the output connected
through tubing to the UV filter intake, and more tubing
from the UV output, back into the tank. This way, the
power head will suck up anything that passes through the
tapered fitting's slots and be pumped through the UV
filter and back out into the tank. I would wrap a
piece of sponge around the tapered (intake) end so that
the sponge acts as a "prefilter" and prevents the "junk"
from getting into the filter. Take a piece of sheet
sponge, wrap it around the intake, and use a plastic
cable tie (zip lock) or two to keep it attached.
Or, you should be able to purchase a sponge prefilter
for powerheads that are used in the RUGF systems from
your LFS and use it.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank & tetratech for the extra UV advice. Before I talk about UV's though, I'm wondering if this oto is okay. I may just be paranoid, as this tank recently lost the 2 apistos & I had thought the otos were doing fine. This tank also is the one with the algae problem. I'm going to put up 3 shots of the otos, & the one I'm wondering about is either shown solo, or is the one on the right. Does he just have a fat tummy from lots of algae, or does his tummy look swollen?

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

another view

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Cheers
TW

last shot of the oto - so what does anyone think. Is he ok?

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Cheers
TW

Back to UV questions. I have the UV unit now, but haven't set it up as I am a little worried about the keeping it clean issue. Frank, here's a picture of the Eheim pump I'll be using. I chose this one as the flow is adjustable & I can slow it right down to help with increased contact time. But here's the thing. Look at the picture of the intake. I don't think I could easily put a sponge there.

I read the instructions on the UV itself & it confirmed that it needs monthly cleaning - but seemed to say that all it takes to clean it, is to once a month pump clean water through it. It doesn't suggest taking it apart or cleaning it any other way. So, for the meantime, I'm still thinking how best to set this up so I can easily take the pump out once a month, so it can be put in a bucket of clean water to pump through, without having to dismantle everything. Apparently, each time you turn the lamp on & off, that also affects the lamp life but it will have to be turned off for cleaning - as the light cannot burn without water being pumped through it.

Thinking also about the best position to put the pump. If I put it underneath where my filtered water returns to the tank - that should mean that it will be drawing in the water at it's cleanest to then push this pre-filtered water into the UV. Would that help at all?

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Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I know nothing about the UV, so straight on to the Oto. Looks really well fed to me

Have a look at my latest 125G Weekly update, there is a really really fat Oto. What a coincidence!

I also believe that, on average, the females are "fatter" than the males. This may be the only way to visually distinguish between the genders, but it is just my theory so far as I have not dug into it any further.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

based on my own experiences with Otos, yours look just fine and healthy to me

About the UV pump, I'd get a large aquaclear sponge and cut a hole in it slightly smaller than the pump, then jam the pump in there.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
I would agree with Matt about a possible way to prefilter
the water entering the pump. From what you have told us
about the UV filter that you have purchased, it sounds like
a "disposable filter." If you cannot clean it and it does
not give you instructions on how to change out the bulb,
then it sounds like after a year you should toss it. That,
is expensive. First, I would contact the manufacturer and
question them about what you have read either here or
elsewhere on the internet about cleaning the bulbs and
changing them them regularly after a period of time. I'd
say that I'd been told that the bulbs need to be changed
every 6 months to a year. Ask them how you are supposed
to accomplish it. Then, depending upon their response, I
would either put it back in the box and return it, unused,
or put it into service.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I can't say I've ever heard of a disposable UV filter. I'm sure there's gotta be a way to disassemble the unit to replace the bulb and clean the crystal sleeve. If there isn't I'd for sure return that sucker, but I doubt that's the case. Even some of the cheapest models I know of have replaceable bulbs and sleeves.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi,
I used the term "disposable" rather loosely in that many
are housed in a opaque plastic housing and the only way
into them is to cut the plastic cylinder apart and then
figure out a way to reseal it. Essentially it is a
buy it, use it, throw it away unit, that was not meant
to come apart for maintenance.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Definitely not a disposable one, considered one of the better units for sale here in Aus. The unit itself was just over AU$370, plus the tubing, plus the pump. Instructions are there for changing the bulb & a set number of running hours is quoted. Removal of the bulb involve getting out your screwdriver etc. For cleaning, it is said that is not necessary - only monthly pumping clean water through it, or possibly water with vinegar. I would assume at bulb changing time, a more thorough cleaning could be done at that time. Because I spent extra $$ & got an electronic one, for some reason that means my globe runs for longer hours before requiring replacement than a non electronic one.

So do you all think it should be pulled apart monthly for more thorough cleaning, although the instructions say that's not required?

Thanks for replies.

Cheers
TW

Because I spent extra $$ & got an electronic one, for some reason that means my globe runs for longer hours before requiring replacement than a non electronic one.

This is referring to the ballast for lighting the bulb. Electronic ballasts fire(light) the bulb more efficiently than thier magnetic counterparts. This leads to longer bulb life and more efficient use of electricity not to mention longer ballast life.

I held out some cash for a super nice electronic ballast(Ice Cap 660) on my new T5HO reef lights as well. Glad I did.

Oh yeah...yes your UV sterilizer should probably be cleaned out more frequently than the 6-10 months your bulb lasts. You can try doing things thier recommended way for a few months then take it apart and see how clean/dirty it is.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

based on my own experiences with Otos, yours look just fine and healthy to me

Thanks Dr Bonke. Sorry I didn't acknowledge your post earlier. Thanks for popping in.

Matty & Frank, I still haven't set it up yet (UV) - partly 'cause I have to search for a sponge that will fit the pump inside it & partly because because when I checked my bag of goodies, the adaptor I needed to make the hose that fits the UV also fit the pump wasn't in the bag. That was ok, 'cause I checked the receipt & I hadn't been charged - but I now have to go back & get one at some stage.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Hm, not much I can say, except that I am still following your log. I have no experience with any of this stuff, but I hope that you have a chance to get the missing piece soon and you are able to plug it in.

What did the hubby say to the UV purchase anyway?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Shhhh No knowledge of it yet. Not yet sure how to handle that one.

Ps - I will delete this reply shortly

Cheers
TW

Just say it cost less than it did...always works for me. I mean what are you talking about LF...Robyn didn't buy anything. *shoos away nosey husbands*

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

This tank continues to have an algae problem. Maybe I will reduce the lighting by one hour a day & see if that has any effects. The swords have a greenish hair algae & the anubia have little black tuffs.

It can't possibly be due to over feeding, as mainly I leave the otos to find their own food. Maybe it is this ADA soil, could it be too rich? The other ADA tank doesn't suffer this way though.

I'm surprised how 2 little otos can make so much mess in the tank. Even though they are the only residents, there is still debris when I vacuum.

For the time being, I have given up on the UV filter in this tank, even though all has been purchased. The darn built in hood just doesn't allow the required pipes to make it in & out of the tank. I will put the UV away until if ever I convert the tank to a cannister filter, remove the hood & replace the top with glass that can be cut to fit the tubes. I'd then get a PC light for the top.

I might order a cheapy UV, that is an internal UV, that comes with it's own built-in pump. I'm currently trialling this on the 20G & if I see any difference in water clarity, I might get one for this tank. Even though it is a little ugly in the tank - it is nowhere near as obtrusive as the pump was, once it was enclosed in a sponge. That was just ugly, as the only sponge I could find big enough was blue.

I have found a use for the pump that was to run the UV. Instead, I submerse it in my wheely water container & it pumps the clean water into my tank - much easier than pouring it in jug by jug, as was my previous method.

Cheers
TW

Well, it has been just over 5 weeks since the apisto deaths in this tank. During the interim, I twice treated the tank with worm killing meds, so I hope everything will be okay. Some days back I bought 2 standard kribs. During all the time since my apistos died, I have not really seen any more apistos around that I thought worth buying. In the LFS, the female was already wearing her breeding dress - so I brought them home & added them to the tank. Since then, I was regretting the purchase, as they retreated to the back of the tank & I never saw them. I knew they were alive, as I caught "glimpses", but no more than that. Anyway, out come both adult fish today, herding their considerable batch of fry with them. Their fry are larger than apisto fry were on the first day out. They already seem active, pecking at the substrate & such. In case any are interested, & if not for my own records, these fry seem to behave differently from the apisto fry - they occasional peck at their parents - is that affection or do they get some sort of sustenance through doing this? A further difference, when the apisots had their fry, only mum was actually with the fry. Dad never attempted to eat them, but he was at a distance, guarding the perimeter. He chased away an oto that got close, but he didn't actually get up close & personal with his fry.

These Kribs are acting as a team, and both of them are staying with the fry. Neither appear to be fry eaters, which is good. The following pictures are the usual blurry mess, but I hope you can see the fry being given care by both parents.

I hastily set up my 2 BBS hatchers & luckily was abile to pick up a batch of BBS to keep me going until mine hatch.

Try to look at the females tail fin, if you can.

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Cheers
TW

another of both parents with their fry



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Cheers
TW

There are more bad pictures on the previous page

Last one, It was really hard to get a pic of the mum from the right angle to show the tail. If you look carefully & you think it is just a trick of the light that her tail appears chopped off - it is no trick. It almost looks like it has been cut off neatly with a knife. The mail & female seem to get on perfectly well right now, but their love play may have been a little rough. I can only guess that he bit her tail off - but how is it that it is such a neat & tidy cut. Also, as she was in full breeding dress, why did he even need to. Surely the breeding dress meant that she was willing & able. I hope it will be ok for the fry that I added some melafix & prefix to the tank to help her heal & help prevent any infection setting in.

Here's another apisto & krib childing rearing difference. When I went in close to the apisto fry with an eye dropper full of BBS - mum backed off. She remained within watching distance, but she did not attempt to stay with her fry to defend them from the eye dropper. These kribs do not move, they say with fry as I squirt the BBS in & they quickly realised that a yummy snack was being delivered

Anyway, that's all for now.

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Cheers
TW

How nice, you soon will have a tank full of Kribs

I guess their negative attribute (aggression) is also their positive attribute (parental care). The "cut off" tail is quite amazing, I wonder what happened there. This must be some aggressive mating process.

Eating off the mother: I know that for example Discus do that as the slime contains nutrition for the fry. But it is unknown to me if the same accounts for Kribs.

Keep us posted,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi LF, yes I will keep you posted.

I guess their negative attribute (aggression) is also their positive attribute (parental care)

They may have more chance to show their negative attribute (aggression) in a community tank, but in this tank not a real need. They share with 2 otos who occasionally get too close for the parents liking, but they are chased away with no more aggression than the apistos did. They don't seem to be going over the top & the 2 species (so far) co-habit peacefully.

BTW, fry not only eat off the mother - but off the father too.

Here is a shot of the mum that maybe shows the sliced off tail more clearly. It is the neatness of the cut that amazes me most.

Do you think melafix & pimafix would hurt the fry? Maybe I should ask this in the hospital forum.

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Cheers
TW

Robyn,

Yes, the straight line in which the tail was separated is very amazing, I have no idea how this can be done.

Thoughts:

- I would assume that male bites would create more curved marks, so that doesn't sound likely
- What if the fry ate it? Loads of little bites could eventually end up looking like a straight line. And they only eat away on the softer tissue of the tail itself, which in turn doesn't bother the mother too much as it will grow back. Sounds reasonable, but is just a thought and not based on ANY knowledge.

I would not treat the tank until I see signs of infection or distress in the fish. I would say it would be more important to first go and try to find out why the tail is missing. If it should be something that frequently happens during breeding then I would not worry too much.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF, then maybe it is more a question for the cichlid forum - I will try there too. Anyway, here is the best shot of the male I have managed so far, naturally with fry surrounding him. The ones on the gravel don't really show up, but you can see a few who have risen above the gravel. He is watching them while mum has a 30 second break pecking at the gravel a few inches further to the left.

Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

Congrats on the fry robyn. I'd say if you want to treat the female it would be best to take her out, but melafix and pimafix are usually pretty mild. I'd ask around a little more though on it's use with fry.

That's one nice looking fish in the last pic

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Is her tail getting any worse, meaning in condition and size?

Are the fry still picking on the parents? Can you see them eat the food that you provide?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi Matty & LF

Thanks for the fish compliment matty. Yes they are both pretty, but usually my camera isn't picking that up - only showing a pair of dark fish. That was my best shot.

The female & the male are doing too good a job looking after their fry to remove her. Her tail is no worse, it is not red, swollen or anything unusual - only that it is gone. I will hold off treatment, as she seems to be not bothered by it's loss one bit.

The fry either peck or nudge against the body's of their parents - I haven't seen them peck the tails, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

I am certain these fry are eating the BBS that I give them, or at least they attempt to. It's possible the BBS are still too big, but they are definitely trying to eat them. They are definitely pecking at the gravel, driftwood for any food found there too. They are very active in that way, far more so than the apistos.

Cheers
TW

Firstly, here is a shot of a new plant purchased on the weekend. It's the light green one just behind the anubia. LFS did write down the name for me, but it's in the car & I'm too lazy to go get it.

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Cheers
TW

Same plant from a wider shot. While I don't recall the name, LFS did say that it would not grow too high & would stay wide & bushy - so I'm hoping that will be so. BTW, those aren't the fry you see. That's air bubbles from tonight's water change.

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Cheers
TW

Something happened last Wednesday night between the krib parents. The previously happy couple, who worked as a perfect parenting team had some sort of disagreement & the fighting commenced. Dad decided mum was no longer allowed to go near the fry. Dad still guarded the fry, but it seemed that the most important task to him was to keep mum away. He was clearly frightening the fry, as he swooshed away to attack mum. The usually active fry hugged the gravel & were staying pretty still. By Thursday night, the female was looking very tired & stressed by the separation from her fry. Wherever dad & fry were in the tank, she was hovering directly above, at the top water level looking down, but if she made any attempt to to join them, the attack was on. I put dad in a breeding net in the same tank & plan A was to put him back 24hrs later & see if the separation was enough to calm things down. Mum went back to guarding the fry & the fry returned to being active & seemed much less stressed.

Then I wondered if a 24hr separation may make dad forget his bond with the fry & snack on them. I asked this question in cichlid forum, but no-one really seemed able to answer this. So, for the moment dad is in a small tank - not sure of size, but it would be no more than 10 or 12 litres I think. Both of my other tanks each contain a male Nigerian red - & I thought that would mean trouble if I put them together. He seems lonely in there, but I'm not sure if I should try rejoining him with his family or not. I really don't want to loose the fry. It is now 10 days since I first saw them & they are doing so well.

Mum's tail is repairing, although it is still not fully back, it is at least someway towards being renewed. Mum is also the fussier eater of the pair. Dad will accept pellets, but mum has so far rejected pellets. She enjoys the BBS as much the fry do.

Anyway, here is a pic of the fry. This was taken last week, when mum & dad were still good buddies.

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Cheers
TW

Hanging out with mum, near the BBS hatchery

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Cheers
TW

Once again, with mum & dad before war broke out.

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Cheers
TW

They may seem on their own, but mum was just out of shot & watching closely

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Cheers
TW

See, she is there after all.

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Cheers
TW

The previous shots of the fry were from last week. Here is a shot of the fry taken a few minutes ago. You can see that mum's tail is growing back in. Particularly if you can be bothered scrolling back quite a few posts when the injury was fresh. It is looking much better now.

Pls ingnore the purple hue. That sometimes happens with my shots, if there isn't enough light for shot.

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Cheers
TW

I hope this shows how much they've grown. They are also much pinker than a week ago (even taking away the purple hue of my shots tonight, in real life they are a mix of orange/brown/pink sort of colour.

Anyhow, that's enough krib fry for tonight.

Edit: Last comment for tonight. Does anyone think it safe to return dad to the tank. He has been separated from his fry for one week now. What do you think?

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Cheers
TW

First of all, I guess what is true for people is even more true for Kribs, they grow up way too fast

Looking good there Robyn. You seem to be able to have a huge batch grow up and then ... Well - Yes - What Then?

I have no idea about the male and what he did and why he did it, neither do I know if it is safe to add him back, sorry.

And I don't know what plant this is either, but I think I have seen it before.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I found the name of the new plant - corymbosa. It is not doing so well and is gradually losing it's leaves - one by one. Not that many left now, although the remain green while on the plant. It guess it might be it is losing it's submersed leaves & will grow the submersed (or is it the other way round?). If LFS told me the truth, that can't be right though. I wanted a small bushy plant that won't grow tall & he said it had been in his tank already more than several months. I hope it isn't just plain old dying.

The fry are over 5 weeks old now & all goes very well for them. So far, mum is not chasing them away (as I was told she might). If anything, it is the fry who think they don't need mum all the time & sometimes separate into small sub groups. Mum though, if she had her way, would have them all together. She is always with one group or the other, leaving only to check on the other group, to eat or to chase away an oto that she imagines may trouble her fry. I wish she'd leave them alone, or they would be less stubborn & move away. Their tails are very ragged, caused by nips from krib mum. But all they do is move slightly to the left or right, which just means they get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th nip on the tail. They are stubborn & so is krib mum.
The fry are fed twice daily with BBS, but also now try to steal adult live brine shrimp from mum. Quite funny & cute to see a fry swimming around with an adult brine shrimp hanging out of it's mouth (it's too big to fit fully in their mouth, so fry swim around chewing & swallowing, chewing & swallowing for quite a while before the shrimp is gone). Wish my camera was good enough to capture it. Sometimes fry are very game and close to mum's mouth while she is eating & I often hope they don't get eaten by accident. But mum is ever careful, clever & protective. Last night it happened, a fry & a shrimp went in her mouth. But mum knew her mistake & spat both out, so her fry would not be harmed. Sometimes she backs off & lets the fry take a shrimp she was clearly pouncing for. I wonder how long she will allow that type of behaviour.

The fry & mum show no fear of me and both swim up to the eye dropper I use to feed BBS or brine shrimp.

Dad, who was banished from the tank as a bully, is quite scared & runs & hides from me during feeding. He comes out only after I back away from the tank. Typical bully - only brave around those smaller than him.

Cheers
TW

Typical bully - only brave around those smaller than him

Robyn,

Nice details on the fry, I like it very much when you give us these updates. Your log should be called "Fry Breeder Log" - excellent

About your plant: corymbosa? As in Hygrophila corymbosa? I thought that is the plant that I had all over the right side of my 125, the right side of the first installment of the 40, the left back of the 29 now, and the middle back of the 20 (man, I have/had it everywhere ).

I types "hygro corymbosa" into the google image search and quite a few differnt shaped plants appear, meaning that you may well have this plant even if it doesn't look anything like mine.

Emersed (out of the water) grown leaves fall off (most of the time with most of the plants) once a plant is submersed for some time and usually will be replaced (in new growth) with under-water leaves.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks LF for the nice comments,

Even though this a planted tank & always will be, it's good for me to have a record of my fry's behaviour for future comparison. I'm glad that at least one other also enjoys them & I hope to read of your own experiences soon. I've corrected an error in my above posting too, the fry are over 5 weeks old (not 4 as said before my correction).

I think that this is the plant http://plantgeek.net/plantguide_search.php?search=corymbosa, the 2nd one down looks like it a lot.

I hope it recovers & will keep my eye out for fresh growth. Being a non C02 tank, growth is a lot slower in this tank. I add about 2ml excel daily - is that about right?

Cheers
TW

Robyn congrats on the krib fry. I kinda lost track of this. Are the krib and fry the only fish in the tank?

My Scapes

Hi tetratech

Thanks for popping in. The tank has only mum krib, the fry & 2 ottos. Dad krib has been banished, as after initially being the perfect husband & joint fry carer, he turned on his wife - wouldn't let her near the fry.

Fry never keep still & I don't know how many I have - but a minimum of 20.

The fry have been, from the start, much stronger & more active than any of my apisto fry. I hope that if I practice on these easier fish, that I will have more success with apistos next time I try.

Cheers
TW

Robyn,

I have been at my LFS this week and I have seen a small tank with kribs and guess what: about half had no tail fin anymore

But otherwise, all seemed to get along well

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club